freestompboxes.org http://www.freestompboxes.org/index.php tracing pedals since 2007 en (c) Copyright 2007 by freestompboxes.org messenger@freestompboxes.org phpBB3 RSS2 Syndication Mod by Manchumahara(Sabuj Kundu) 1 Fortin - Grind Pedal http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26990#p271501 <br /> by Optical (Posted Today, 01:18)<br/><br /> Anyway, I built two pedals so I can tweak one and A/B it against the other. <br /><br />First thing I did was add a LPF to the output, currently experimenting with 47-100nF across the output. That kills a bit of the noise<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26990">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Today, 01:18 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26990#p271501 EH Stereo memory man with Hazarai replacement 3pdt help? http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29182#p271500 <br /> by pinkjimiphoton (Posted Today, 01:13)<br/><br /> call electro harmonix directly, i've called there before and spoken to mike mathews in the past. sounds crazy, but....<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29182">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Today, 01:13 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29182#p271500 Snarling Dogs Whine-O Wah http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24974#p271498 <br /> by scoogr (Posted Yesterday, 22:29)<br/><br /> The link to the schematic went bad + I figured out how to attach it here.<br />Msuydam, the switch is wired Brown-Red-Orange across the top, empty-black-yellow across the bottom. Maybe your wah has the same coloring scheme? HTH<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24974">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 22:29 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24974#p271498 EH - Soulpreacher http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2937#p271497 <br /> by borislavgajic (Posted Yesterday, 21:36)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>Sendy CZ wrote:</cite>Pleas have anybody Soul Preacher with LM3080 - "PC4501" PCB? <br /><br />I have one SP to repair, unfortunately somebody has exchanged some parts and some parts are missing.</div></blockquote><br /><br /><br />this?<br /><!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/download/file.php?id=28092&mode=view">download/file.php?id=28092&mode=view</a><!-- l --><br /><!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/download/file.php?id=28094&mode=view">download/file.php?id=28094&mode=view</a><!-- l --><br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2937">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 21:36 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2937#p271497 Danelectro - N-10 Honeytone amp http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8969#p271496 <br /> by Ichabod_Crane (Posted Yesterday, 18:36)<br/><br /> It's still no verified <img src="./images/smilies/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8969">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 18:36 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8969#p271496 filters in modulation http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29185#p271494 <br /> by POTL (Posted Yesterday, 16:10)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>phatt wrote:</cite>As for input buffer,, might mean a few more parts but they have huge advantage, Isolation!<br /><br />Without trying to show off how little I know about the tecky maths lol,, I'll just stick to what I worked out from building stuff and then had it confirmed by reading lots of tech books. <img src="./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /> <br /><br />The buffer converts a high Z input to a low Z output.<br />What for ?? NOISE is the enemy of Hi Z circuitry and a buffer stage goes a long way in keeping the S/N ratio to a minimum.<br /><br />Just build a TS circuit with an input buffer and then without. <img src="./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /> <br />With No buffer you will get more gain and dirt but you can't use the extra gain because the noise renders it unusable.<br />IMHObservation after 30 plus years of messing with circuits,,, If you need a noise gate you likely have a crap design. <br /><br />A lot of fancy brands remove the buffer and claim all sorts of BS but it's a no brainer for brands like Rane whose schematics are full of buffer stages on every input. <br />My old Quadraverb,, first thing in the signal path is a buffer.<br />Why? because they KNOW what the result will be if you skimp.<br /><br />Not sure about the rest of the post ,, I got a bit lost as to what you meant but better minds may know more.<br />Phil.</div></blockquote><br /><br />Hey.<br />I know why I need a buffer. <img src="./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /> <br />But let's take a look at the schemes from the technical side.<br />The chorus has a buffer and a high input impedance of 500K = R1 // R2<br />Now pay attention to the flanger. At the input we have a non-inverting amplifier, also with a high input impedance 470K = R24<br />That is, there is no difference in impedance (30K is equivalent to the spread of components). This is one of the charms op amp that we can simultaneously create amplifiers filters and buffers using one half of the chip.<br />So the impedances here do not play a significant role BRO =)<br /><br />Regarding Screamer and buffers, yes, I noticed a decrease in gain, but then I decided to deploy the transistor and realized that I had misinterpreted the pinout of LOL <img src="./images/smilies/77horsey.gif" alt=":horsey:" title="Horsey!" /><br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29185">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 16:10 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29185#p271494 Analogman - King of Tone http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=382#p271493 <br /> by Seiche (Posted Yesterday, 12:56)<br/><br /> So I traced the circuit and it's pretty much what we already know. The only differences are thus:<br /><br />- the input cap is 22n on both sides<br />- instead of 1s1588, this uses 1n914<br />- output cap of the high-gain red side has an "H" painted on it, but is the same value 105 as on the yellow side. The IC also has and H painted on and the chip id sanded off.<br />- the feedback loop cap on the yellow side ist a weird value. 505? The red side has the usual 101=100pF.<br /><span style="font-weight: bold">- On the high-gain red side the gain resistor is 100k, on the yellow side it is 1k.</span><br /><br />I think the last part is news, as this resistor was always assumed to be 10k and the gain pot changed for high-gain on DIY projects.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=382">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 12:56 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=382#p271493 Pete Cornish - NG-2 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3845#p271491 <br /> by pervyinthepark (Posted Yesterday, 08:31)<br/><br /> Does anyone want to work on setting up a new tracers fund..?<br />In Lou Reeds memory?<br />I love the NG Fuzz sound he gets on Like A Possum. Its insane and kind of unique yet something that's always been there, ay?<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3845">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 08:31 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3845#p271491 Dunlop - Cry Baby GCB-95: how to improve it for cheap http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=286#p271487 <br /> by Bside2234 (Posted Yesterday, 00:17)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>rafamoraes82 wrote:</cite>I think I need some thoughts... Recently I´ve been trying some mods on my GCB95. <br /><br />I tried to change the 0.01uF cap to 0.022uF (it got too bassy), and mechanicaly changed the range of the wah pot like... 1 or 2 notches, but eventually I reverted those changes to stock specs afterwards.<br /><br />By now the changes running are:<br /><br />1- 33k resistor (in parallel with the inductor) changed to 47k;<br />2- MPSA18 Transistors changed to BC109B (according to Fuzz Central website - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/axiswah.php">http://fuzzcentral.ssguitar.com/axiswah.php</a><!-- m --> - this mod is meant to give the pedal a more mellow wah response, along with more bass).<br /><br />Problem is, although theese two mods gave me the tone I wanted when playing clean (a more "woh" effect rather than "weh", and less ear pearcing highs), when I´m using distortion along with the wah there is a drastic change when I rock the pedal from the up position to the down position. It seems that when the sweeping reaches a certain high frequency (near the foot down position), the wah effect suddenly makes a huge "roar" from then on.<br /><br />Sorry if I did not make myself clear, and for my poor english...<br /><br />So, what can I do to make the transition from bass to highs smoother? I just want to get rid of that subtle "roar" I´m getting when using wah+distortion...<br /><br />I´m wondering if changing the midrange resistor (1.5k) could help to smooth out the sweeping? Or is it a drawnback of using the less gainny BC109s?<br /><br />Thanks in advance</div></blockquote><br /><br />A quick thing to try is to move the distortion before the wah if it's after it or after the wah if it's before it. Sometimes this changes how the wah behaves.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=286">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> Yesterday, 00:17 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=286#p271487 Tycobrahe - Octavia http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=121#p271483 <br /> by The Rotagilla (Posted 20 Jul 2018, 02:04)<br/><br /> I got the GGG kit the other day and have been collecting schematics along the way. Some observations...<br /><br />1) With the exception of the early hand drawn and Dunlop schematics, all the others seem to be the same. Am I missing some glaring discrepancies?<br /><br />2) The completed GGG kit left me underwhelmed so I started digging around and checking things.<br /><br /> - MPSA18's have a gain range of 500-1500hfe (according to current datasheets). I built the negative ground version which uses a 2N5087 and has a gain range of 250-900hfe. I did not measure mine yet.<br /><br /> - MPS6519's have a gain range of 250-500hfe (according to current datasheets). The GGG kit uses 2N4401's and they have a gain range of 100-300hfe.<br /><br />3) I kept the 2N5087 because I didn't have anything else on hand but swapped the 2N4401's for 2N5088's and noticed an improvement. The fuzz portion sounds closer to what it should. <br /><br />4) I had read that the diodes need to have low forward voltage ratings and some people posted that they got better octave results if the diodes were matched. I did swap out the Ge diodes GGG sent with some low forward voltage ones I had and got a stronger octave. <br /><br />5) I have a Chicago Iron Octavia coming in tomorrow, I'll dissect and report.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=121">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 20 Jul 2018, 02:04 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=121#p271483 Caline CP-18 Orange Burst Overdrive http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23061#p271481 <br /> by aw73 (Posted 19 Jul 2018, 22:58)<br/><br /> if it was flux i definitely would not use that kind. i use liquid rosin flux and it is non corrosive and it wont conduct. i ordered some kester 186 no clean flux to try, ive never used it before. i also have shaky hands and smd soldering is very hard for me.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23061">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 19 Jul 2018, 22:58 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23061#p271481 Preferred PCB design software http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20166#p271476 <br /> by Ice-9 (Posted 18 Jul 2018, 16:21)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>J0K3RX wrote:</cite>I would like to retract my earlier post/comment about "AutoTRAX Design Express 2020".... I use KiCad, Diptrace, Sprint and they are all excellent!<br /><br />I am posting this to warn others about AutoTRAX Design Express 2020 (DEX)!!! I saw it in late November 2012 and purchased it (MISTAKE!) registered it and it worked for about 6 months until I launched it one day and this woman's voice came blasting over my speakers and said "OH NO!!!" and a message that said "Demo Period Has Expired" wanting me to purchase again. <img src="./images/smilies/mw_hmmm.gif" alt=":hmmm:" title="Hmmm..." /> So, I tried to sign in with the "Sign On ID and Password" that they sent to me... Guess what, yup, no longer valid.. shocker huh.. <img src="./images/smilies/icon_scratch.gif" alt=":scratch:" title="scratching head" /> So then I emailed them and sent them messages online and got no response, at all! I don't know about other people but I work hard for my money so, I don't like it when somebody or some company bends me over and gives it to me up the pooper!!! <img src="./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /> I have trolled other forums and have seen a lot of complaints about this software, a lot.. It looks impressive with all the features.. And guess what, not all that easy to use as they claim! I am just glad that I could contribute to this company's success with my FREE donation of $49.00 <img src="./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /> <br /><br />For $49 this is the claim:<br /><span style="font-weight: bold">This is the FULL version and includes free upgrades for 12 months and never expires.<br />Unlimited pin count, sheets, layers, parts, PCB size - in other words : everything unlimited!</span> Yeah!? Bullsh!t.. <img src="./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /> <img src="./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /> <img src="./images/smilies/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /> <br /><br />Check it out, but be warned! <br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.kov.com/">http://www.kov.com/</a><!-- m --></div></blockquote><br /><br />And the website name is now gone. failed.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20166">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 18 Jul 2018, 16:21 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20166#p271476 MOD IDEA: would this make negative feedback of boss BF-2? http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29161#p271473 <br /> by marshmellow (Posted 17 Jul 2018, 20:58)<br/><br /> In addition to what Phil said: you can't change the polarity of the signal at that point. It would upset the phase relation of the mixer in front of the BBD, as well as the mixer of clean signal and effect signal at the output.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29161">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 17 Jul 2018, 20:58 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29161#p271473 EHX - Micro Synth XO Version http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14650#p271471 <br /> by KevinMitchell (Posted 17 Jul 2018, 15:31)<br/><br /> My layout will show the variations for guitar and bass <img src="./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /> <br />Sorry guys I've had allot going on. Some bad and some very good. But all is well.<br /><br />I'm still picking away at this. Soon I'll be completely satisfied and will put up some samples along with the toner transfer layout. Might be a while before I have boards manufactured for distribution.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14650">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 17 Jul 2018, 15:31 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14650#p271471 Cornish G2 - Guts, Schematic, Layout (from Tracer's Fund) http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9255#p271468 <br /> by mookyj (Posted 17 Jul 2018, 06:08)<br/><br /> I find it a disappointment of craft to see what is in this pedal. One could claim craftsmanship for the harnessing, except if designed properly, none would ever be needed. The PCB looks to be old tape and mylar design which may hold nostalgic value but as it is, it's poorly laid out, and poorly adapted for PCB fab, DFM, consistent impedance and minimal return paths. Seriously expected to see far better implementation and execution of design...shame to see something so overpriced and poorly designed. I would say he went out of his way to make it more difficult to reverse engineer it. The goop is a real nice paranoid feature... <br /><br />If you make it well enough and cheap enough, it makes it not worth the bother for your competitor. <br /><br />Kudos to the efforts to make sense of it, it surely can be done properly with significant improvements.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9255">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 17 Jul 2018, 06:08 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9255#p271468 Stopping in to say hello http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29180#p271467 <br /> by mookyj (Posted 17 Jul 2018, 06:04)<br/><br /> Just a friendly hello, and to introduce myself. Been a bass player since 1974. Been fixing , repairing and designing gear not long after. Started building pedal boards for myself in early 80's. Own my own tech company and design CMOS image sensors and PCB's Certified IPC designer. I do custom work for several guitar amp companies and keeps brings me back to a place of my younger years and work that I did a lot of to pay for groceries as a young father. <br /><br /><br />Mike<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29180">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 17 Jul 2018, 06:04 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=29180#p271467 Replacement Vibe Circuit Boards http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29179#p271465 <br /> by jsrfo (Posted 17 Jul 2018, 01:52)<br/><br /> Replacement printed circuit boards for use in Uni-Vibe effect with damaged/de-laminated original boards.<br /><br />These printed circuit boards are modern replacements, and can be used as an alternative to hand etching a replacement board. They are not meant to replicate the look of the original hand etched boards, but provide an alternative for those not concerned with historical accuracy of their vibe or those wishing to do a DIY project.<br /><br />They are of the same form and fit as the originals. The trace layout is identical to the original Uni-Vibe board, and are silk screened with parts values from known working schematics and layouts. The boards will allow for the use of either flat or stand up trimmers, and have one extra ground lug.<br /><br />The boards are professionally made, high quality replacement printed circuit boards for use as a replacement for failed, damaged, or de-laminated original Uni-Vibe circuit boards.<br /><br />For DIY projects, the boards will produce a working "vibe". I do not provide parts kits for those interested in doing a DIY project. It will take a little self education to produce a working effect, and information can be found performing internet searches.<br /><br />There are two different circuit board versions available. One has silk screen printing on the top side, which would be visible, to some extent, after the build is completed. The other is silk screened on the bottom, and no part identifiers are visible from the top side, once completed. Please identify your preference when ordering. I have ten of each style. Please see attached photo if interested.<br /><br />Please feel free to ask any questions you may have concerning this item.<br /><br />Thank you<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29179">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 17 Jul 2018, 01:52 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29179#p271465 Ramble FX - Marvel Drive 1.0 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24744#p271464 <br /> by PedalPCB (Posted 16 Jul 2018, 19:26)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>JabboWookie wrote:</cite>I built this off of Bugg's PedalPCB Marble Drive, which I'm assuming is based off of this schematic. I'm getting a whine from the TC1044S when I'm in 9V mode. Everything's good in the 18V mode. I've tried two different chips with the same result. Any ideas why this might be happening? Obviously it goes away when I pull the chip.<br /></div></blockquote><br /><br />Add a 10K resistor from the bottom lug of the SPDT to ground, should clear up the whine. This is happening with some charge pumps.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24744">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 16 Jul 2018, 19:26 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24744#p271464 EHX DMM Questions http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29177#p271461 <br /> by POTL (Posted 15 Jul 2018, 22:17)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>marshmellow wrote:</cite>6. When you are working in the kitchen, you can clean up after every step of the process, or you clean everything once when you are finished with cooking. The end result is the same.<br /><br />7. The 150R increases the output impedance. But the complete term is R5 + each "half" (depending on the position of the wiper) of the blend potentiometer in parallel. So in middle position you get the maximum output impedance of 150R + 5k||5k. Turn it to any other position it decreases, at each end of the travel it is only the series resistor. So overall a sufficiently low enough impedance to not cause any problems in a guitar context.<br /><br />8. "Power" is not relevant in small signal audio. The higher voltage of the MN3005 reduces distortion and improves SNR. Other than that they should sound identical when applied properly. But I have never compared both ICs in the same circuit, I'm sure other people have and documented it somewhere.</div></blockquote><br /><br />6) Now I understand, thanks) <img src="./images/smilies/icon_thumright.gif" alt=":thumbsup" title="thumbs up" /> <br /><br />7) Yes, that's what I expected, in general, I would install a buffer or install it in the same place as the BOSS DM2<br /><br /><img src="./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /> Got it.<br />Before that, I only collected distortion effects and with increasing voltage, the sound was better.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29177">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 15 Jul 2018, 22:17 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29177#p271461 AMT Electronics - S1 Legend series http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15891#p271452 <br /> by temol (Posted 15 Jul 2018, 09:33)<br/><br /> Thank you very much for your help.<br /><br />T.<br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15891">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 15 Jul 2018, 09:33 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15891#p271452 Basic Audio - Scarab Deluxe http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14396#p271451 <br /> by elbeeuk (Posted 15 Jul 2018, 09:20)<br/><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>roseblood11 wrote:</cite>After three years, I finally finished my build...<br />- Using bc547b transistors with hfe around 350 is no problem, I even liked them better than 2n5088 with higher gain<br />- I tried both variants of the tone circuit that were discussed in this thread. Both are useful, so I put them on a switch as shown in the vero board layout.<br /><br />Wiring five 9mm pcb-mount pots in a 1590b enclosure is slave labor! Does anybody sell a pcb for this circuit?</div></blockquote><br /><br />They sell a PCB over at PedalPCB <img src="./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><br /><!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.pedalpcb.com/product/dungbeetle/">https://www.pedalpcb.com/product/dungbeetle/</a><!-- m --><br /><br /><br /> <a href="http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14396">Read the main topic related to this post</a><hr /> 15 Jul 2018, 09:20 http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14396#p271451