Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

All about modern commercial stompbox circuits from Electro Harmonix over MXR, Boss and Ibanez into the nineties.

Moderators: Greg, moderators

  • Advertisement

Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby tonymcbony » 13 Jul 2011, 07:51

Take a look at these, with the You Dirty Rat as a comparison (which uses the same circuit board as the Chinese made RAT2 but uses USA parts and is assembled there)

Righteo here are the pics:

Whiteface RI
Image

Vintage RI component
Image

You Dirty Rat component
Image

You Dirty Rat tracks
Image
Vintage RI tracks
Image
Whiteface tracks
Image

As you can see, the difference in the Whiteface and Vintage RI are negligible.
Different types of caps around the Opamp, possibly 2 carbon comp resistors at the bottom.
I'm a bit noob but that's what I picked up. I'll get the actual numbers when I get around to it.

Tonally I was having a hell of a time trying to figure out which box was on when I was doing a shoot out of the Whiteface and the Vintage RI. All that was in it was the Whiteface was a little bit quieter in terms of noise.

So yeah, thought I'd just point it out.

For this message the author tonymcbony has received thanks: 3
JOHNO (13 Jul 2011, 08:12), p.eat (14 Jul 2011, 11:14), rocklander (18 Jul 2011, 05:44)
tonymcbony
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 14:08
Has thanked: 9 times
Have thanks: 11 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby tonymcbony » 18 Jul 2011, 05:10

Hey folks, just to clarify, are those caps Mylar?
Also, are those two red looking resistors at the bottom right carbon resistors?
tonymcbony
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 14:08
Has thanked: 9 times
Have thanks: 11 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ryanuk » 18 Jul 2011, 11:26

Thanks for posting this tonymcbony

I recently undertook a RAT project and have a library of images of PCBs. With your permission, Ill add your pix.

Re your findings, its interesting that there is little comparison between Vintage RI and Whiteface RATs. So why reissue the reissue?? My guess is that the Whiteface is Proco's response to the bad rap that the RAT2 has earned itself. THere's been some speculation over the sound and reliability of the unit. I cant voice an opinion on the RAT2 sound as I've never personally played a chinese RAT2 but it would seem a logical response by Proco to release a "vintage" unit, and make the original sound available again. VERY cheeky considering that the whiteface costs MORE THAN double the RAT2 (in the UK).

A LOT of the criticism of the RAT2 seem to be based souly on the OP07 op amp. I dont think there's an issue here. I spent several hours A/B'ing my favourite RAT circuit swapping out the 308 with the a OP07, and noticed very little difference. Perhaps the 308 was a TAD tighter, but the difference was very slight. Not the "night and day" difference that folk claim; nothing to suggest that the 308 is a magic solution which **makes** a RAT.

Thanks again tonymcbony
User avatar
ryanuk
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 173
Joined: 29 May 2008, 12:18
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 20 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby JOHNO » 18 Jul 2011, 11:55

tonymcbony wrote:Hey folks, just to clarify, are those caps Mylar?
Also, are those two red looking resistors at the bottom right carbon resistors?

I think the caps (the ones around the Ic) are monolythic. And the resistors may be hunts. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.
biffa wrote:
I still shove a spike in my arm twice a day,but this forum helps a lot
User avatar
JOHNO
Cap Cooler
 
Posts: 582
Joined: 21 Jun 2009, 08:13
Has thanked: 47 times
Have thanks: 49 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby okgb » 18 Jul 2011, 13:24

Anyone seen the circuit to this one , or know how they are changing the sound ?

Deucetone RAT
As boutique pedal builders pushed effects prices higher and higher, Pro Co introduced the Deucetone RAT to compete in this market. The Deucetone RAT is the evolution of the R2DU, with two RAT circuits in one enclosure, but now in a pedal . Each RAT circuit is switchable between three RAT tones. The Deucetone introduced the Dirty RAT and Clean RAT settings to guitarists
okgb
Cap Cooler
 
Posts: 579
Joined: 16 Mar 2010, 04:58
Has thanked: 93 times
Have thanks: 24 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby Chugs » 18 Jul 2011, 13:49

ryanuk wrote:
A LOT of the criticism of the RAT2 seem to be based souly on the OP07 op amp. I dont think there's an issue here. I spent several hours A/B'ing my favourite RAT circuit swapping out the 308 with the a OP07, and noticed very little difference. Perhaps the 308 was a TAD tighter, but the difference was very slight. Not the "night and day" difference that folk claim; nothing to suggest that the 308 is a magic solution which **makes** a RAT.

Thanks again tonymcbony


People say that the OPO7 is thinner or harsher sounding than a LM308. I think, however, that this perception may be down to the fact that a lot of the Chinese Rats have 0.0027uf instead of a 0.0033uf cap in the tone control. This will make a OPO7 Rat sound brighter at the same tone settings compared to a LM308 Rat.

If you bump the compensation cap of a OPO7 up from 33pf to a 100-150pf to compensate for the fact that the OPO7 has a faster slew rate than a LM308 then they sound pretty much the same to me.
Chugs
Resistor Ronker
 
Posts: 252
Joined: 16 May 2009, 10:47
Has thanked: 20 times
Have thanks: 37 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby roseblood11 » 18 Jul 2011, 14:30

What are the correct values for the parts that form the voltage divider (resistors and filter cap) in the original rat circuit from the 80ies?
Some schematics have 100k and 1µF, other have 10k and 47µF...
roseblood11
Opamp Operator
 
Posts: 1487
Joined: 23 Aug 2008, 15:21
Has thanked: 247 times
Have thanks: 264 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ryanuk » 18 Jul 2011, 16:51

Chugs wrote:
ryanuk wrote:
A LOT of the criticism of the RAT2 seem to be based souly on the OP07 op amp. I dont think there's an issue here. I spent several hours A/B'ing my favourite RAT circuit swapping out the 308 with the a OP07, and noticed very little difference. Perhaps the 308 was a TAD tighter, but the difference was very slight. Not the "night and day" difference that folk claim; nothing to suggest that the 308 is a magic solution which **makes** a RAT.

Thanks again tonymcbony


People say that the OPO7 is thinner or harsher sounding than a LM308. I think, however, that this perception may be down to the fact that a lot of the Chinese Rats have 0.0027uf instead of a 0.0033uf cap in the tone control. This will make a OPO7 Rat sound brighter at the same tone settings compared to a LM308 Rat.

If you bump the compensation cap of a OPO7 up from 33pf to a 100-150pf to compensate for the fact that the OPO7 has a faster slew rate than a LM308 then they sound pretty much the same to me.


+1 - its perception. When I was building up my RAT project, I breadboarded the stock circuit and toy'd with it. I ended up changing some values around the filter to make the range more useful to me. That was the biggest change. I tried cap mods but didnt notice much difference. I swapped diodes and this had the most impact but changed the circuit too much for liking.

Anyhoo, point I wanted to make is that several times I swapped the IC between the 308 and the OP07. No harshness. Not thin. So I agree with you that the other parts of the circuit have overall influence.

I gotta say that the pedal I built is my favorite distortion. Kicks the ass off my Turbo Rat. Now that thing DOES sound harsh and thin! lol
User avatar
ryanuk
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 173
Joined: 29 May 2008, 12:18
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 20 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby tonymcbony » 19 Jul 2011, 00:00

ryanuk wrote:Thanks for posting this tonymcbony

I recently undertook a RAT project and have a library of images of PCBs. With your permission, Ill add your pix.

Re your findings, its interesting that there is little comparison between Vintage RI and Whiteface RATs. So why reissue the reissue?? My guess is that the Whiteface is Proco's response to the bad rap that the RAT2 has earned itself. THere's been some speculation over the sound and reliability of the unit. I cant voice an opinion on the RAT2 sound as I've never personally played a chinese RAT2 but it would seem a logical response by Proco to release a "vintage" unit, and make the original sound available again. VERY cheeky considering that the whiteface costs MORE THAN double the RAT2 (in the UK).

A LOT of the criticism of the RAT2 seem to be based souly on the OP07 op amp. I dont think there's an issue here. I spent several hours A/B'ing my favourite RAT circuit swapping out the 308 with the a OP07, and noticed very little difference. Perhaps the 308 was a TAD tighter, but the difference was very slight. Not the "night and day" difference that folk claim; nothing to suggest that the 308 is a magic solution which **makes** a RAT.

Thanks again tonymcbony


Yep, add the pix for sure.

For some reason I love tinkering with Rat pedals and built my own which sounds the best.
Having toyed with the recent Rat 2, and at least 2 versions of the vintage rat ri, the difference is totally in a couple of parts values, not the opamp. The Chinese ones are a lot more scooped and fuzzy, whereas the vintage RI and Whiteface rats are a lot more crunchy and mid forward, more distortion than fuzz. A stock LM308 is usually a good sign that you've got the crunchy circuit, the OP07 usually a sign you've got a newer scooped circuit. The Chinese Rat 2s literally fall apart as you work with them, and you spend half the time fixing annoying problems like leads breaking off. The worst is that they glue the knobs on to the pots so sometimes you remove the pot shaft just trying to get the knob off. Better to go with the You Dirty Rat or Turbo Rat as they're both still USA made and don't have those probs. It's interesting to note that the new USA rats like the YDR and TR are all drilled up to be proco solos; there are 4 pot holes and a long rectangle for a switch.
tonymcbony
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 75
Joined: 25 Aug 2008, 14:08
Has thanked: 9 times
Have thanks: 11 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby Liquitone » 20 Jul 2011, 13:52

I think those reddish resistors are Vishay/dale CMF 0.1% metal film resistors,
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSea ... 10KHBTR-ND
I havent looked at the schematics, but I assume they are placed in critical positions like in front of the op-amp or in the gain-stage, which might explain why the whiteface is a bit less noisy.

p.s I have a Vintage RI and it has the OP7 instead of the 308 in it. I have never really liked my Rat for some reason, so I might try and play with different op-amps and capacitors to see if it changes that.
User avatar
Liquitone
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 71
Joined: 20 Jan 2010, 00:04
Location: Groningen, The Netherlands
Has thanked: 11 times
Have thanks: 9 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ryanuk » 21 Jul 2011, 09:59

Liquitone wrote:p.s I have a Vintage RI and it has the OP7 instead of the 308 in it. I have never really liked my Rat for some reason, so I might try and play with different op-amps and capacitors to see if it changes that.


A Vintage RI without a LM308 - interesting. Can you take some pics of the PCB and enclosure.

As for mods, the link below is to the Keeley RAT thread and my findings implementing some of the mods, as well as incorporating some of my own. Very effective mods IMO; no diode switching involved.

http://freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1750&p=128356&hilit=keeley+rat#p128222

RyUK
User avatar
ryanuk
Solder Soldier
 
Posts: 173
Joined: 29 May 2008, 12:18
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 20 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby Liquitone » 21 Jul 2011, 17:02

I have completely disected it when i just got into modifying pedals and needed some of the parts.,. the chip is replaced by a socket,. but im 100% sure it was the OP07 (it was hard to read but it wasnt the 308.)
I will post some pics when I have the time before rebuilding it.
User avatar
Liquitone
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 71
Joined: 20 Jan 2010, 00:04
Location: Groningen, The Netherlands
Has thanked: 11 times
Have thanks: 9 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby bucksears » 25 Jun 2013, 14:49

Resurrecting this one:
Is there a schem available for the Whiteface Reissue?
bucksears
Breadboard Brother
 
Posts: 137
Joined: 09 Sep 2007, 00:02
Has thanked: 8 times
Have thanks: 35 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ggbb » 25 Jun 2013, 15:25

bucksears wrote:Resurrecting this one:
Is there a schem available for the Whiteface Reissue?


The WFR circuit is the same as the original RAT - http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main. ... T.png.html.
ggbb
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 12 Jan 2011, 23:16
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 2 times
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby limbe » 05 Jul 2013, 20:43

The thing that has been a puzzle for me,is that I haven´t seen a replica of the very first Rat pedals,that Scott Burnham talked about in the book "STOMPBOX" which surely more people than me must have read.Those Rats had an input buffer with the same N-FET transistor as in the output buffer.I am not entirely sure why it was dropped in favor of true bypass but it does change the sound.As it was one of the first schematics floating around the internet,though it had a couple of errors .My guess is that the circuit was traced from an original pedal by a person who didn´t understand it fully.The errors were later corrected by Jack Orman and can be found on the diystompboxes site.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/PCRAT1.GIF
If I am breaking any copyright law by posting it here,please remove the link and I will never do it again.

Since I have built this version and also the RAT 2 I would of course be interested in hearing someone else´s opinion of the difference in sound.
P.S. Reading how Scott Burnham by mistake put a 47 ohm instead of a 470 ohm resistor in the prototype and think that the sound he got is what makes the RAT special,I think it´s rather funny that the most common mod is to clip it off.
limbe
 
Posts: 6
Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 16:00
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ggbb » 05 Jul 2013, 22:45

limbe wrote:I am not entirely sure why it was dropped in favor of true bypass but it does change the sound.


I don't think true bypass was the motive for the change since both the hand-made originals and the original mass productions units were true bypass. Dropping the input buffer was likely a cost saving measure for mass production. In addition to dropping the FET, the input impedance of the op-amp was raised to match that of the FET - 1M - essentially eliminating the "need" for the separate buffer.

One of the originals is here: http://ratdistortion.com/history. I have seen pictures of it, insides included, and it does indeed have the input buffer FET - or at least it has two transistors and no LED. I'd post a link but I don't recall where I saw them. It is an interesting unit from a historical perspective, but it isn't the version that made the RAT famous. I've never heard one so I can't comment on the sound. How does the one you built sound compared to your RAT-2?
ggbb
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 12 Jan 2011, 23:16
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 2 times
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby lead2203 » 06 Jul 2013, 03:32

limbe wrote:The thing that has been a puzzle for me,is that I haven´t seen a replica of the very first Rat pedals,that Scott Burnham talked about in the book "STOMPBOX" which surely more people than me must have read.Those Rats had an input buffer with the same N-FET transistor as in the output buffer.I am not entirely sure why it was dropped in favor of true bypass but it does change the sound.As it was one of the first schematics floating around the internet,though it had a couple of errors .My guess is that the circuit was traced from an original pedal by a person who didn´t understand it fully.The errors were later corrected by Jack Orman and can be found on the diystompboxes site.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/PCRAT1.GIF
If I am breaking any copyright law by posting it here,please remove the link and I will never do it again.

Since I have built this version and also the RAT 2 I would of course be interested in hearing someone else´s opinion of the difference in sound.
P.S. Reading how Scott Burnham by mistake put a 47 ohm instead of a 470 ohm resistor in the prototype and think that the sound he got is what makes the RAT special,I think it´s rather funny that the most common mod is to clip it off.


Theres still mistakes on that schematic... shouldn't there be 10k not 1k on the source of the FETs or am i missing something?
lead2203
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 May 2009, 03:09
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 3 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby Dirk_Hendrik » 06 Jul 2013, 07:19

limbe wrote:http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/PCRAT1.GIF
If I am breaking any copyright law by posting it here,please remove the link and I will never do it again.

I think it´s rather funny that the most common mod is to clip it off.


I'd wish there was a way to get that schematic off the internet because of those errors. :roll:

That mod is funny indeed. Especially since it's about the only mod someone ever came up with that requires no soldering, and, but that's a more personal opinion, it's not that good at all...
Sorry. Plain out of planes.

http://www.dirk-hendrik.com
User avatar
Dirk_Hendrik
Old Solderhand
 
Posts: 3640
Joined: 03 Jul 2007, 09:44
Location: Old Amsterdam
Has thanked: 198 times
Have thanks: 737 times

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby ggbb » 06 Jul 2013, 11:11

lead2203 wrote:Theres still mistakes on that schematic... shouldn't there be 10k not 1k on the source of the FETs or am i missing something?


One would think so, but perhaps that assumption is simply because the revised production RATs used 10K on the output FET - and this we know for certain. Whether or not the circuit would work and sound right with 1K I don't know, but I suppose it could be possible. Note also the the FET itself changed from BF245A to 2N5458 - that could be a factor in the change if it did actually change. So it's difficult to be certain that there are errors - I wish someone with one of the originals would trace it and let us all know so we can put this mystery to rest. I can confirm that the component counts on that schematic match with the photos I've seen.

What I find most peculiar is the supposed sources of the schematic. It's hard to imagine that a schematic from RG Keen and Jack Orman could be wrong. It's also hard to imagine that RG's schematic needed correcting by Jack in the first place. If it were wrong you would think that at least RG would be on record somewhere stating the error. I suspect that if the schematic were truly wrong or had forged authorship, there would be a clear record of RG and/or Jack stating so. If that exists somewhere please point it out to me - I really want to know.

It's all very unclear.
ggbb
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 12 Jan 2011, 23:16
Location: Toronto
Has thanked: 2 times
Have thanks: 0 time

Re: Proco - Vintage Rat Reissue, Whiteface Rat Reissue

Postby lead2203 » 06 Jul 2013, 16:45

ggbb wrote:
lead2203 wrote:Theres still mistakes on that schematic... shouldn't there be 10k not 1k on the source of the FETs or am i missing something?


One would think so, but perhaps that assumption is simply because the revised production RATs used 10K on the output FET - and this we know for certain. Whether or not the circuit would work and sound right with 1K I don't know, but I suppose it could be possible. Note also the the FET itself changed from BF245A to 2N5458 - that could be a factor in the change if it did actually change. So it's difficult to be certain that there are errors - I wish someone with one of the originals would trace it and let us all know so we can put this mystery to rest. I can confirm that the component counts on that schematic match with the photos I've seen.

What I find most peculiar is the supposed sources of the schematic. It's hard to imagine that a schematic from RG Keen and Jack Orman could be wrong. It's also hard to imagine that RG's schematic needed correcting by Jack in the first place. If it were wrong you would think that at least RG would be on record somewhere stating the error. I suspect that if the schematic were truly wrong or had forged authorship, there would be a clear record of RG and/or Jack stating so. If that exists somewhere please point it out to me - I really want to know.

It's all very unclear.

Changing the FET would not matter. All the ones Ive looked at had 10k for the buffers, My friend had one of the first ones(v1) with the input buffer..it has 10k. You can see 10k in these pics...
http://webpages.charter.net/daosmun/Ver%201.htm
lead2203
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 May 2009, 03:09
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 3 times

Next

Return to Modern Stompbox Effects (1975 - ...)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Weird969 and 6 guests