Colorsound - Vocalizer

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 12 Sep 2011, 14:07

Pretty cool sounding Wah effect, it seems to sound similar to the Wah pedal that Toni Iommi, the guitarist in Black Sabbath, used on the song "Electric Funeral" featured on the Paranoid album, I like the mouthiness of it, and the Fuzz Face pedal you were using with it in the demo video sounds smooth, similar to how mine sounds, my Fuzz Face uses two PNP Germanium Transistors, one has a gain of 86 and the other has a gain of 122, about where some people have said where you get the best sounds, but I wouldn't mind modding mine so it's like the Joe Bonamassa Fuzz Face, been hearing good things about those Russian GT303's lately, apparently they're the bomb.....

borislavgajic · Post by **borislavgajic** » 13 Sep 2011, 21:00

You should wire pot legs 1 and 3 together...not 3 to ground ...like you prefer.......than we could hear more human voice sounds....please could you make one short demmo with that original wiring?

thanks

Boris

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 13 Sep 2011, 22:04

it does NOT work like that, boris. doesn't do shit, in fact...one side or the other needs to be grounded, doesn't really matter, but if you jumper them, it doesn't work...sounds like heel down on the wah pedal, and that's it bro. the schem is wrong, or perhaps one of the chips died...but i don't think so, as everything seems to be right voltage wise and the layout is 100% ok to the schematic on the web. but some of the gut shots indeed do show the pot tied to ground...so..

yes, i could re-connect it...but then the pedal won't work.

borislavgajic · Post by **borislavgajic** » 14 Sep 2011, 10:12

OK ...thanks very much for answering

you have in your configuration 2 wahs in paralell.....going up and down togerher....different capacitors in each ,so therer is no wowels happening there....that pot lugs should be connected to V/2 throught 1k2 resistor.......and than through transistor you controll ca3080 which acts like variabile resistance for lower filter.......so on heel position one filter is all in high frequencies,other one goes from bass to high(in the middle of travell) and again to bass freq.......so there should be taler effect.........

You could allways add little toggle switch to choose your sound or original one.......I would like to make it talk so soon I will make one too.

You could check what is happening around Ca3080 and tranny ....is there voltage swinging on pin5............

Thanks for all
cheers

Boris

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 14 Sep 2011, 13:58

hi boris,
i'm a newb so not sure wtf is going on with the circuit...

what you're describing sounds like what should happen, thanks for the description...really have no idea how it was supposed to work...so i'm thinking that i'll try re-wiring it as original and play with it some to see if i can make it do that. will also check pin 5 when i get a chance later today hopefully.

thanks for the info. i DID have it doing something like that, but thought it might be wrong...

so you mean it should be treble on both sides of the wah sweep with the "heel down" sound in the middle, right?

i think it may be a prob with the taper of the pot maybe...there's a part of the pot that does exactly what you say, but it's at the very end of the pot travel when toe is down. i will try it and play with it later...thanks so much!

peace bro

borislavgajic · Post by **borislavgajic** » 15 Sep 2011, 09:11

You are welcome man!

so you mean it should be treble on both sides of the wah sweep with the "heel down" sound in the middle, right?

....yes......one filter goes from low to high....other one is moving from high through low to high again.......that is how you do talker effect.....

audio path is pretty the same in all 3 pedals ....EH Talkingpedal,dipthonizer,vocalizer...and PUE talker..........different is only way used to controll filters move.....

please if you have some free time it would be great to see how this circuit sounds...thanks very much

Boris

borislavgajic · Post by **borislavgajic** » 15 Sep 2011, 13:36

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 15 Sep 2011, 15:05

hey bro, i hooked it up as per the schematic again last nite. had some problems. one side of the 22k pot (purple wire to lugs 1 & 3, blue wire to wiper) HAS TO BE GROUNDED. doesn't matter which...no ground, doesn't work....or rather, barely does.

it definitely does the double wah thing hooked up like that, but at the ends of the pot travel is horrible distortion, and i'm pretty sure it cooked the 3080...as wired, i can't kill the distortion, and the pedal loses that fat-ass tone. i wired it like a ludwig phase II in vowel mode, and it goes yaaahhhiiiiee pretty good like that...the schematic is closer to the ludwig's "counter" mode, where it opposes the two filters, where it goes yoyoyoyoyoy...but then it doesn't work right.

i didn't have a spare 3080e, but replaced the other chip to try and get the distortion to go away...no dice. wiring it like i settled on seemed to help, but i'll be picking up an nte996 today ...same pinout as the 3080, and what i used in my build.

also tried replacing the transistor from an mb16b to a 2n3906...didn't help, and the sucker got stuck.

i broke the transistor socket off the board, requiring a little surgery. also nuked the 1% 22k resistor just next to it. oops.

so...i don't wanna roast another 3080 wiring it "right"...but for you, and dino, i will get TWO today, so i can make a vid of both versions for you guys.

the only dif between my wiring and the schematic is the jumper and grounding one side of the pot. doesn't seem to be crucial which way the other side is, as long as grey is in the middle and white on 1 or 3.

anyways...will try to do this over the next day or so bro...gotta re-build my pedalboard tonite for tomorrow's gig, then going to look at and hopefully get a second ludwig phase II on saturday,,,it's "broken"...and the guy wants a fuzzbox.

wish me luck!!

thanks for the layout, if only i could afford to set up to do pcb's...

one other thing...the 330r resistor at the end of the circuit doesn't really seem to do much of anything. if in the circuit, the pedal is less than unity gain...removed, it's about 6db above unity.

talk soon my friend. blessings to you!

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Sep 2011, 16:00

pinkjimiphoton wrote:hey bro, i hooked it up as per the schematic again last nite. had some problems. one side of the 22k pot (purple wire to lugs 1 & 3, blue wire to wiper) HAS TO BE GROUNDED. doesn't matter which...no ground, doesn't work....or rather, barely does.

it definitely does the double wah thing hooked up like that, but at the ends of the pot travel is horrible distortion, and i'm pretty sure it cooked the 3080...as wired, i can't kill the distortion, and the pedal loses that fat-ass tone. i wired it like a ludwig phase II in vowel mode, and it goes yaaahhhiiiiee pretty good like that...the schematic is closer to the ludwig's "counter" mode, where it opposes the two filters, where it goes yoyoyoyoyoy...but then it doesn't work right.

i didn't have a spare 3080e, but replaced the other chip to try and get the distortion to go away...no dice. wiring it like i settled on seemed to help, but i'll be picking up an nte996 today ...same pinout as the 3080, and what i used in my build.

also tried replacing the transistor from an mb16b to a 2n3906...didn't help, and the sucker got stuck.
i broke the transistor socket off the board, requiring a little surgery. also nuked the 1% 22k resistor just next to it. oops.

so...i don't wanna roast another 3080 wiring it "right"...but for you, and dino, i will get TWO today, so i can make a vid of both versions for you guys.

the only dif between my wiring and the schematic is the jumper and grounding one side of the pot. doesn't seem to be crucial which way the other side is, as long as grey is in the middle and white on 1 or 3.

anyways...will try to do this over the next day or so bro...gotta re-build my pedalboard tonite for tomorrow's gig, then going to look at and hopefully get a second ludwig phase II on saturday,,,it's "broken"...and the guy wants a fuzzbox.

wish me luck!!

thanks for the layout, if only i could afford to set up to do pcb's...

one other thing...the 330r resistor at the end of the circuit doesn't really seem to do much of anything. if in the circuit, the pedal is less than unity gain...removed, it's about 6db above unity.

talk soon my friend. blessings to you!

I think I've got a couple of spare LM3080 ICs that I could post off to you mate if you want, but they're in a plastic 8-Pin style package....

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 15 Sep 2011, 19:54

hi doc, that would be awesome, thanks so much....when i went to the local parts place to grab the nte parts, they were out...despite their computer saying they had them in stock. figures.

they're supposed to have them by next thursday, so i guess tomorrow nite i'll have to use the phase II instead of the vocalizer...i don't like to travel with the ludwig too much tho, don't want dodgy electricity to nuke it as has happened to other stuff in the past.

the pedal is working, but during part of the sweep it's got an awful distortion to it...not what it should be or was before i re-wired it. it seems like wired as shown in the schematic, if it gets to either end of the sweep pot rotation, it messes the chip up. really weird!!!

willing to take a bullet tho to help ressurect this pedal...so i will take you up on your kind offer, pm sent with address as soon as i post this...thanks so much, the plastic 8 pin dip is exactly what i need. i was gonna order some off evilbay, but i hate to order stuff from china and wait a month and hope it will work.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Sep 2011, 20:23

pinkjimiphoton wrote:hi doc, that would be awesome, thanks so much....when i went to the local parts place to grab the nte parts, they were out...despite their computer saying they had them in stock. figures.

they're supposed to have them by next thursday, so i guess tomorrow nite i'll have to use the phase II instead of the vocalizer...i don't like to travel with the ludwig too much tho, don't want dodgy electricity to nuke it as has happened to other stuff in the past.

the pedal is working, but during part of the sweep it's got an awful distortion to it...not what it should be or was before i re-wired it. it seems like wired as shown in the schematic, if it gets to either end of the sweep pot rotation, it messes the chip up. really weird!!!

willing to take a bullet tho to help ressurect this pedal...so i will take you up on your kind offer, pm sent with address as soon as i post this...thanks so much, the plastic 8 pin dip is exactly what i need. i was gonna order some off evilbay, but i hate to order stuff from china and wait a month and hope it will work.

No worries then, I got your pm, will send two off to you next Tuesday because that's when I get my next pension payment, and I'm very short of cash at the moment, but I will get them sent off to you mate....

Have you checked the voltages on the ICs with a multimeter?, it could be that the biasing for the LM3080 IC might be a bit off from where it should be, I'll be happy to help you out with getting your pedal working properly....

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Sep 2011, 21:05

pinkjimiphoton wrote:hi doc, that would be awesome, thanks so much....when i went to the local parts place to grab the nte parts, they were out...despite their computer saying they had them in stock. figures.

they're supposed to have them by next thursday, so i guess tomorrow nite i'll have to use the phase II instead of the vocalizer...i don't like to travel with the ludwig too much tho, don't want dodgy electricity to nuke it as has happened to other stuff in the past.

the pedal is working, but during part of the sweep it's got an awful distortion to it...not what it should be or was before i re-wired it. it seems like wired as shown in the schematic, if it gets to either end of the sweep pot rotation, it messes the chip up. really weird!!!

willing to take a bullet tho to help ressurect this pedal...so i will take you up on your kind offer, pm sent with address as soon as i post this...thanks so much, the plastic 8 pin dip is exactly what i need. i was gonna order some off evilbay, but i hate to order stuff from china and wait a month and hope it will work.

Okay, I just had a quick look through my bits and pieces, and I've managed to find one so far, it is marked LM3080AN, should work fine in your pedal, I'm going to keep looking and see if I can find another one, I do remember having at least five of them....

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Sep 2011, 21:24

Okay, I've just managed to find two LM3080AN ICs for you pinkjimiphoton....

Here's what they look like:

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 15 Sep 2011, 23:30

thank you simon.

checking now...

pin one

heel / toe 0v

2

heel 4.15 toe 3.93

3 same as 2

4 0

5 heel .51 toe .63

6 heel 4.15 toe 3.92

7 9.58

8 0

i'd say the 3080 chip is working.

4136n, same way, heel then toe

1 4.22 3.99

2 4.10 3.87

3 4/40 4.18

4 4.05 3.83

5 4.17 3.94

6 4:19 3.95

7 0

8 4.07 3.84

9 4.05 3.82

10 3.50 bounces around and settles 3.26

11 9.58

12 3.50 3.27

13 4.05 3.82

14 4.07 3.84

that seems to be working too.

mp16b

e 3.31 2.20

b 3.93 2.16

c .61 2.30

so .....what do you think bro?

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 15 Sep 2011, 23:43

pinkjimiphoton wrote:thank you simon.

checking now...

pin one

heel / toe 0v

2

heel 4.15 toe 3.93

3 same as 2

4 0

5 heel .51 toe .63

6 heel 4.15 toe 3.92

7 9.58

8 0

i'd say the 3080 chip is working.

4136n, same way, heel then toe

1 4.22 3.99

2 4.10 3.87

3 4/40 4.18

4 4.05 3.83

5 4.17 3.94

6 4:19 3.95

7 0

8 4.07 3.84

9 4.05 3.82

10 3.50 bounces around and settles 3.26

11 9.58

12 3.50 3.27

13 4.05 3.82

14 4.07 3.84

that seems to be working too.

mp16b

e 3.31 2.20

b 3.93 2.16

c .61 2.30

so .....what do you think bro?

What does the distortion actually sound like?, if it sounds like something is mis-biased then maybe something might be shorting out somewhere, if it were at all possible to feed a signal into the pedal with a Sinewave generator and then view the resulting output on a scope, then we could use them to track down the source of the distortion, it could also be caused by the filters going into self-oscillation at some high frequency or something....

Or maybe the voltage on pin 10 of the 4136n bouncing around may actually be a clue as to the causde of the distortion...

If you happen to have a can of electronic contact cleaner, try giving the pots a spray and rotate the shafts back and forth a few times and see if that gets rid of the distortion, could be a dirty pot....

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 16 Sep 2011, 00:59

hi simon,
i DO have a scope, but the closest thing i have to a signal generator is my ugly face...that i could set to a steady tone and put it thru the pedal.

yes, it sounds like a blown tube in a tube amp, it's around d/e in terms of resonance, and is a very uncontrollable and blatty fuzzy distortion, not what it was before. sounds like a half blown solid state amp.

the pot's sealed, do you think it may be because it's conductive plastic? dino thought that may be it. i will try and get some contact cleaner in there.

re-soldered the whole strip side of the board...no difference. still afu.

these are older pics, the pot isn't wired like that now. this was from when it was first built.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 16 Sep 2011, 07:31

pinkjimiphoton wrote:hi simon,
i DO have a scope, but the closest thing i have to a signal generator is my ugly face...that i could set to a steady tone and put it thru the pedal.

yes, it sounds like a blown tube in a tube amp, it's around d/e in terms of resonance, and is a very uncontrollable and blatty fuzzy distortion, not what it was before. sounds like a half blown solid state amp.

the pot's sealed, do you think it may be because it's conductive plastic? dino thought that may be it. i will try and get some contact cleaner in there.

re-soldered the whole strip side of the board...no difference. still afu.

these are older pics, the pot isn't wired like that now. this was from when it was first built.

Jimi, that grey round component near the IC, is that a Germanium transistor?, if so, that could be causing the distortion because it may have gone leaky from being soldered onto the board, so try measuring the voltages on it's terminals.....

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 16 Sep 2011, 07:39

What you could do is connect your scope up to the pedal, and plug your guitar into it and use your guitar as a signal generator, then while plucking an open string on the guitar, start with the scope probe on the output and work your way back to the input using the schematic as a guide, make sure you have the pedal set so it's producing the distortion, at some point you will get a clean signal, when you do work back towards the output till you see the distortion on the scope display, between the point in the circuit where you see a clean signal and where you see the distortion is where the cause of the distortion is most likely to be...

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 16 Sep 2011, 14:45

DrNomis wrote:
pinkjimiphoton wrote:hi simon,
i DO have a scope, but the closest thing i have to a signal generator is my ugly face...that i could set to a steady tone and put it thru the pedal.

yes, it sounds like a blown tube in a tube amp, it's around d/e in terms of resonance, and is a very uncontrollable and blatty fuzzy distortion, not what it was before. sounds like a half blown solid state amp.

the pot's sealed, do you think it may be because it's conductive plastic? dino thought that may be it. i will try and get some contact cleaner in there.

re-soldered the whole strip side of the board...no difference. still afu.

these are older pics, the pot isn't wired like that now. this was from when it was first built.

Jimi, that grey round component near the IC, is that a Germanium transistor?, if so, that could be causing the distortion because it may have gone leaky from being soldered onto the board, so try measuring the voltages on it's terminals.....

i did read the voltage, in heel and toe positions...have tried several ge and si pnp's in there. it only uses it as a switch anyways, so it should be fine. it may be the 4.5v zener diode...it SOUNDS like really ratty diode clipping in fact..

here's the voltages:

e 3.31 2.20

b 3.93 2.16

c .61 2.30

you can actually plug the freakin' transistor in either way, makes no diff, works just fine. the tranny i think i prefer is a ge mp16b.

pinkjimiphoton · Post by **pinkjimiphoton** » 16 Sep 2011, 14:47

DrNomis wrote:What you could do is connect your scope up to the pedal, and plug your guitar into it and use your guitar as a signal generator, then while plucking an open string on the guitar, start with the scope probe on the output and work your way back to the input using the schematic as a guide, make sure you have the pedal set so it's producing the distortion, at some point you will get a clean signal, when you do work back towards the output till you see the distortion on the scope display, between the point in the circuit where you see a clean signal and where you see the distortion is where the cause of the distortion is most likely to be...

awesome, simon...i gotta gig tonite and have to re-build my pedal board, but if i get a chance today or tomorrow i will try doing that. i just figured using the oscillator in the ugly face would be easier...set it around 1k or so, and let it go on and on...lol.

appreciate all the help and advice!