Pignose Legendary 7-10 value?
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
Hmmm... wha´s so special with this unit ?
look out for an old russian transistor radio and you´ve got it.... (same technology).
analogguru
look out for an old russian transistor radio and you´ve got it.... (same technology).
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
analogguru, it is very interesting for me. I experimenting with this topology and have some interesting results. I have test different transformers (sizes and w1/w2), wide range of russian Ge transistors (it can be easy to find them here in Russia now), different schematics etc. I have searched some information about Deacy amp. I can speak long about this topology and my experiments. For example, it have not any emitter followers, I can experiment with RC, direct or transformer coupling of stages and this topology is a unic, which very close to valve amps, realized in transistors. And even more words....
I have a schematic of 7-100 (but only one resistor value confused me), but I want THOUSE transformers, speaker and cabinet And I want to hear the REAL thing and compare it with my created amps.
PS: I have ~ 10 old russian transistor radios (I am interesting in this theme as I say above), but all of they have very little transformers - they are create to work with a sufficient amount of feedback in the schematic. They gives good results under 1.5V power supply without a feedback but they are a little quet (how is to say "not loud" in english? ) There are some interesting russian amplifiers of thouse topology was created in 60s-70s (3-5 watt car radios and etc. with a normal transformers), but they are very hard to find now.
"This is far from all that I can say about the war in V'iethnam" (C) - cover version of that Forrest Gump's phrase
I have a schematic of 7-100 (but only one resistor value confused me), but I want THOUSE transformers, speaker and cabinet And I want to hear the REAL thing and compare it with my created amps.
PS: I have ~ 10 old russian transistor radios (I am interesting in this theme as I say above), but all of they have very little transformers - they are create to work with a sufficient amount of feedback in the schematic. They gives good results under 1.5V power supply without a feedback but they are a little quet (how is to say "not loud" in english? ) There are some interesting russian amplifiers of thouse topology was created in 60s-70s (3-5 watt car radios and etc. with a normal transformers), but they are very hard to find now.
"This is far from all that I can say about the war in V'iethnam" (C) - cover version of that Forrest Gump's phrase
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
But the Deacy-amp also only had only 0,5 watt and was made from an old transistor-radio - as far as I know.
The Pignose also uses feedback (from output to the emitter of the first transistor).
The Pignose uses silicon transistors whether I am pretty sure that the Deacy used germanium.
As far as I know the Piggy-in-a-box contains the same amplifier inside as the 7-100.
Which resistor value are you confused about ?
analogguru
The Pignose also uses feedback (from output to the emitter of the first transistor).
The Pignose uses silicon transistors whether I am pretty sure that the Deacy used germanium.
As far as I know the Piggy-in-a-box contains the same amplifier inside as the 7-100.
Which resistor value are you confused about ?
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
"Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour." - where I can read it?
1. Some resourses says 1 watt. And some says about CAR radio. This may means, that it was construct to run from 12v power supply and to run on the 3 ohm power receiver. And I think that John Deacon uses it with 9v and 8 or even more (up to 20) ohm speaker. This 2 things reduses output power very much. May be down to 100 mwt or less.
2. I know about feedback and Si in Pignose. But there are different deeps of feedback can be in amps, yes? I personally prefer lite feedback or without it. And I see dimensions of the transformers on my radios, Pignose, but what they were in a Deacy?
3. And what about Si-Ge? The Pignose is Si, but I can reconstruct it to unrecognizible state
4. What is "Piggy-in-a-box"? Where I can see it. And where I can take it?
5. Resistor - shunt of the primary of interstage transformer. Two schematics what I have says about 68E or 680E. I dont beilive in this. As for me, even 6.8k wood be small. Maybe they measure it but really measure the primary wire ohm?
If you have a schematic of 7-100 - can you share it for more concretic speak?
1. Some resourses says 1 watt. And some says about CAR radio. This may means, that it was construct to run from 12v power supply and to run on the 3 ohm power receiver. And I think that John Deacon uses it with 9v and 8 or even more (up to 20) ohm speaker. This 2 things reduses output power very much. May be down to 100 mwt or less.
2. I know about feedback and Si in Pignose. But there are different deeps of feedback can be in amps, yes? I personally prefer lite feedback or without it. And I see dimensions of the transformers on my radios, Pignose, but what they were in a Deacy?
3. And what about Si-Ge? The Pignose is Si, but I can reconstruct it to unrecognizible state
4. What is "Piggy-in-a-box"? Where I can see it. And where I can take it?
5. Resistor - shunt of the primary of interstage transformer. Two schematics what I have says about 68E or 680E. I dont beilive in this. As for me, even 6.8k wood be small. Maybe they measure it but really measure the primary wire ohm?
If you have a schematic of 7-100 - can you share it for more concretic speak?
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
There were you read that it was a CAR radio.Ivana wrote: "Audio engineering suffers from misinformation, disinformation, and downright lying more than most fields of endeavour." - where I can read it ?
bullshit.... I already sorted this out here:1. Some resourses says 1 watt. And some says about CAR radio.
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... y&start=18
thats useless speculation based on BS.This may means, that it was construct to run from 12v power supply and to run on the 3 ohm power receiver. And I think that John Deacon uses it with 9v and 8 or even more (up to 20) ohm speaker. This 2 things reduses output power very much. May be down to 100 mwt or less.
All of this type of amplifiers use feedback - even russian2. I know about feedback and Si in Pignose. But there are different deeps of feedback can be in amps, yes? I personally prefer lite feedback or without it.
"Orbita" schematic
"Signal" schematic
"Sport 2" schematic
Thats necessary in this toplogy.
Like in every (japanese) radio of this time:And I see dimensions of the transformers on my radios, Pignose, but what they were in a Deacy?
Therefore you don´t need the pignose then. The most important parts are the transformers and (Ge-)transistors.3. And what about Si-Ge? The Pignose is Si, but I can reconstruct it to unrecognizible state
Do you know "Google" ?:4. What is "Piggy-in-a-box"? Where I can see it. And where I can take it?
http://www.google.at/search?as_q=&hl=de ... afe=images
It´s a 7-100 in stompbox form (without speaker I think):
680E appears to be right.5. Resistor - shunt of the primary of interstage transformer. Two schematics what I have says about 68E or 680E. I dont beilive in this. As for me, even 6.8k wood be small. Maybe they measure it but really measure the primary wire ohm?
I think you have the same two as I do - the schematic with the 680E apears to be a factory schematic.If you have a schematic of 7-100 - can you share it for more concretic speak?
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
about 1 watt
https://fryerguitars.wordpress.com/about-fryer-sound/
http://www.brianmayworld.com/treble_booster.htm
... + tons of "bs"
about Car
http://www.portlandmusiccompany.com/brianm.html
http://www1.epinions.com/review/VOX_Bri ... 5597602436
... + tons of "bs"
Maybe all of this is bs - I dont know. I started to read your Deacy topic in details. But 12 or 9 v and even more - 3 or 20 ohm makes a big differenties on power and sound.
"Thats necessary in this toplogy." (about feedback) - and this is real bullshit! Dont say anithing if you dont know. Or confidence to your other words falls up to zero.
Thanks for the transformers dimentions (integer numbers is santimeters? or duims? or anything else?), remembering the google, and resistor value - but I very surprized in it! It eats 2/3 of signal imho.
About Pignose - a think it would be simplier to take a whole amp than only transformers. Am I right? And plus to this I want hear the real amp to comparison.
PS I read your topic winh a big interes. This is, that I want to read or speak with anybody during about a year or more
https://fryerguitars.wordpress.com/about-fryer-sound/
http://www.brianmayworld.com/treble_booster.htm
... + tons of "bs"
about Car
http://www.portlandmusiccompany.com/brianm.html
http://www1.epinions.com/review/VOX_Bri ... 5597602436
... + tons of "bs"
Maybe all of this is bs - I dont know. I started to read your Deacy topic in details. But 12 or 9 v and even more - 3 or 20 ohm makes a big differenties on power and sound.
"Thats necessary in this toplogy." (about feedback) - and this is real bullshit! Dont say anithing if you dont know. Or confidence to your other words falls up to zero.
Thanks for the transformers dimentions (integer numbers is santimeters? or duims? or anything else?), remembering the google, and resistor value - but I very surprized in it! It eats 2/3 of signal imho.
About Pignose - a think it would be simplier to take a whole amp than only transformers. Am I right? And plus to this I want hear the real amp to comparison.
PS I read your topic winh a big interes. This is, that I want to read or speak with anybody during about a year or more
Last edited by Ivana on 28 Nov 2008, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
I can live with that.- and this is real bullshit! Dont say anithing if you dont know. Or confidence to your other words falls up to zero."Thats necessary in this toplogy." (about feedback)
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
Possible.... there exists enough electronic junk.I guess it is true. Else I would not say anything what can kill you But there are many schemes this topology without ANY (local and global) feedback, and existans of they is sufficient to me to dont beleive you in this case.
But from an viewpoint of - for audio-playback acceptable - amount of distortion you need it, especially when there is no temperature stabilization, which sometimes is also not fitted.
And when you consider that the transistors often are not really matched...
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
I can not find quick examples in internet, but I many times read that schematics in books and try myself. Even venerable AC30 have not global fb - not a good example!? Or it is also "electronic junk"? Or a half of SE prinstones have fb an other half dont. Yes, it valves, but it is not principial in this case.
In some cases global fb are used for temp stabilization, but it must be ON DC current to! And in all our cases it only AC fb.
Yes, you are right, that fb reduses "amount of distortion". And for this aim it was incerted in such amps. But I create amps to play guitar with , and any "amount of distortion" is good for me. But fb eats cleverness espesially on high freqs imho. Althow (forget how to write this word), as I say above, we can simply tweak the deepness of fb from 0 to 100%.
In some cases global fb are used for temp stabilization, but it must be ON DC current to! And in all our cases it only AC fb.
Yes, you are right, that fb reduses "amount of distortion". And for this aim it was incerted in such amps. But I create amps to play guitar with , and any "amount of distortion" is good for me. But fb eats cleverness espesially on high freqs imho. Althow (forget how to write this word), as I say above, we can simply tweak the deepness of fb from 0 to 100%.
HI all,
Very interesting topic...
Here are some Pignose 7-100 schematic diagrams I have collected :
Talking about transistors, I have recently bought a new Pignose ,
same schematic as the first one, but with different trans.
Here are the resistors used on mine :
driver : 2 x S9014 NPN silicon
output : 2 x TIP41C NPN silicon
I have also measured transformers values :
driver trans : input 40 Ohms / output 2 x 25 Ohms
output trans : input 2 x 4 Ohms / output 0.3 Ohms and 1.1 Ohms
Does anyone know how to replicate these 2 transformers ?
I dont really feel disassembling them to count the many wire turns !
Very interesting topic...
Here are some Pignose 7-100 schematic diagrams I have collected :
Talking about transistors, I have recently bought a new Pignose ,
same schematic as the first one, but with different trans.
Here are the resistors used on mine :
driver : 2 x S9014 NPN silicon
output : 2 x TIP41C NPN silicon
I have also measured transformers values :
driver trans : input 40 Ohms / output 2 x 25 Ohms
output trans : input 2 x 4 Ohms / output 0.3 Ohms and 1.1 Ohms
Does anyone know how to replicate these 2 transformers ?
I dont really feel disassembling them to count the many wire turns !
Hi, Chris.
1) "I have also measured transformers values" - imho you just measure only DC resistance of its wires. It dont say anything exept you can see diameter of wires and therefore calculate the length of wire and a quantity of cycles. You better will being measure the inductances of each wire - this can say much more. But as I think you have not a problem to take another Pignose or even 10, for what aim you want to know the transformer parameters and replicate them?
2) If you want - can you test subj without 680E in collector T2 or with bigger R in this place? Like on 3-d scheme. And tell us about the sound.
3) The same thing with fb resistor
1) "I have also measured transformers values" - imho you just measure only DC resistance of its wires. It dont say anything exept you can see diameter of wires and therefore calculate the length of wire and a quantity of cycles. You better will being measure the inductances of each wire - this can say much more. But as I think you have not a problem to take another Pignose or even 10, for what aim you want to know the transformer parameters and replicate them?
2) If you want - can you test subj without 680E in collector T2 or with bigger R in this place? Like on 3-d scheme. And tell us about the sound.
3) The same thing with fb resistor
Hi Ivana,
Yes you are right, it would be better to measure wire inductance. Do you know a simple way to do this ?
(i own an oscilloscope,and a BF sine generator)
I want to replicate transformer so I can build another pignose. Since I am a child, I do like the challenge
of replicating things, like completely restoring old cars, building amplifiers, software or whatever. Not to sell them of
course, but just to be proud of replicating by my own way ! I recently build a Vox AC30 top boost replica, from
combinating ac30 preamp and other amps, with a simple EL84 output valve. It works very well.
Next step for pignose is injecting a sine signal and trace all values from input to output.
and yes, i'll try the mods you are talking about. Just need some time to do it !
Last thing, I have bought some output transformers very near to the pignose one :
2 x 3.5 Ohm / 2 x 0.6 Ohms. As soon as i get them, i'll have to try them.
I have alse bought some input BF transformers (1 Ohm / 50 Ohms,), but they will be no use as there is no "middle point".
Here is my own AC05 !
Yes you are right, it would be better to measure wire inductance. Do you know a simple way to do this ?
(i own an oscilloscope,and a BF sine generator)
I want to replicate transformer so I can build another pignose. Since I am a child, I do like the challenge
of replicating things, like completely restoring old cars, building amplifiers, software or whatever. Not to sell them of
course, but just to be proud of replicating by my own way ! I recently build a Vox AC30 top boost replica, from
combinating ac30 preamp and other amps, with a simple EL84 output valve. It works very well.
Next step for pignose is injecting a sine signal and trace all values from input to output.
and yes, i'll try the mods you are talking about. Just need some time to do it !
Last thing, I have bought some output transformers very near to the pignose one :
2 x 3.5 Ohm / 2 x 0.6 Ohms. As soon as i get them, i'll have to try them.
I have alse bought some input BF transformers (1 Ohm / 50 Ohms,), but they will be no use as there is no "middle point".
Here is my own AC05 !
No one interested anymore ? Uh, what a pity !
Anyway, here are some measurements I have done :
input signal : 200 Hz, injected sine signal 4mV, vol pot set to 1/4,
T1 input (base) : < 1mV
T2 input (base) : 6mV
T2 output (collector) : 48mV
Tr1 output : 2 x 16mV
Tr2 input : 2 x 260mV
+HP input : 180mV
feedback signal (before 68K res) : 220mV
Does it help ?
Anyway, here are some measurements I have done :
input signal : 200 Hz, injected sine signal 4mV, vol pot set to 1/4,
T1 input (base) : < 1mV
T2 input (base) : 6mV
T2 output (collector) : 48mV
Tr1 output : 2 x 16mV
Tr2 input : 2 x 260mV
+HP input : 180mV
feedback signal (before 68K res) : 220mV
Does it help ?
- analogguru
- Old Solderhand
Information
I didn´t forget this matter, but my time is a bit short at the moment - I will come back later to it.
analogguru
analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.
Thanks for your interest both of you !
Here is a translation of russion forum measurements :
Regimes on the direct current (DC), relative to the common wire:
supply voltage by 8,8
voltage of supply of preamplifier 8,6
base of first transistor 0,7
emitter of first transistor 0,16
resistor 47 Ohm 0,018
collector of first transistor 7,2
base of second transistor 2,4
emitter of second transistor 1,8
collector of second transistor 8,5
voltage on diode 0,67
resistor 2,2 Ohm 0,067
collectors of output transistors 8,7
Transformer 1:
input: R = 41 Ohm; L = 0,51 H; Q = 1,36
output: R = 49 Ohm; L = 0,53 H; Q = 1,39
the halves of outputs are identical
core 7mm * 5,5mm = 38,5 mm^2
Transformer 2:
input: R = 7,5 Ohm; L = 54,5 mH; Q = 2,1
the halves of input are identical
the halves of output are not identical
output 1 (lower according to diagram): R = 1,1 Ohm; L = 8,5 mH; Q = 2,45
output 2 (upper according to diagram): R = 0,4 Ohm; L = 0,47 mH; Q = 2,6
core 11mm * 7mm = 77 mm^2
AC signal (peak to peak) :
input signal : 200 Hz, injected sine signal 4mV, vol pot set to 1/4,
T1 input (base) : < 1mV
T2 input (base) : 6mV
T2 output (collector) : 48mV
Tr1 output : 2 x 16mV
Tr2 input : 2 x 260mV
+HP input : 180mV
feedback signal (before 68K res) : 220mV
Here is a translation of russion forum measurements :
Regimes on the direct current (DC), relative to the common wire:
supply voltage by 8,8
voltage of supply of preamplifier 8,6
base of first transistor 0,7
emitter of first transistor 0,16
resistor 47 Ohm 0,018
collector of first transistor 7,2
base of second transistor 2,4
emitter of second transistor 1,8
collector of second transistor 8,5
voltage on diode 0,67
resistor 2,2 Ohm 0,067
collectors of output transistors 8,7
Transformer 1:
input: R = 41 Ohm; L = 0,51 H; Q = 1,36
output: R = 49 Ohm; L = 0,53 H; Q = 1,39
the halves of outputs are identical
core 7mm * 5,5mm = 38,5 mm^2
Transformer 2:
input: R = 7,5 Ohm; L = 54,5 mH; Q = 2,1
the halves of input are identical
the halves of output are not identical
output 1 (lower according to diagram): R = 1,1 Ohm; L = 8,5 mH; Q = 2,45
output 2 (upper according to diagram): R = 0,4 Ohm; L = 0,47 mH; Q = 2,6
core 11mm * 7mm = 77 mm^2
AC signal (peak to peak) :
input signal : 200 Hz, injected sine signal 4mV, vol pot set to 1/4,
T1 input (base) : < 1mV
T2 input (base) : 6mV
T2 output (collector) : 48mV
Tr1 output : 2 x 16mV
Tr2 input : 2 x 260mV
+HP input : 180mV
feedback signal (before 68K res) : 220mV