+ and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground?

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+ and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground?

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 08:41

Hello fine people!

I made a pedal, that combines the Orange Squeezer and the Dallas Rangemaster, and they are being blended in various combinations via the splitter blender circuit, from runoffgroove, you know the place...

While everything is working correctly, and I am powering the rangemaster with a baterry, I cannot ground it right damnit! So, I have one input and one output jack, a battery, a dc jack for the OS. Pots are grounded via the enclosure.

usually, when I am making a positive ground [or should I say positive supply] pedal, i ground everything on the output jack, even the input jack. this has proven to be fantastic, so i can have the pedal lying on the table, all in parts, working perfectly, and with absolutely no hum or other undesirable side effects...

I am getting a loud ticking noise, oscillation if you will, with the grounding I have done so far with this particular project, I cant get them both ON and working, only if one is OFF and other is ON, there is a proper signal goin' on [when I say ON and OFF, I am thinking of miniature dpdt switches that I have, OS and Rangemaster are wired to the switches in true bypass, without LEDs, and I did this so I could have only one pedal running if I wanted to]

So what's your recommendation guys?

Tnx in advance.
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby mysticwhiskey » 09 Aug 2011, 09:05

As you've discovered, using one battery to directly power both circuits at the same time won't work as you'll short-circuit the battery. You will need a bipolar power supply with +9V and -9V rails - either by using two batteries, or by using a circuit like that which is shown here: http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circui ... er-supply/

Be aware that the maximum current that the MAX1044 can supply is limited to around 20mA, so you will need to determine the total current draw of your circuits to see if this solution is suitable.

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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 09:19

The other way to power both circuits is to build the power supply from Bajaman's Real Tube Overdrive, you could house it in a separate box to the two effects, and just run a 3-wire cable to the box with the two circuits in it, use one wire for the common ground, and use the other two wires for the +V and -V supplies.... :thumbsup
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 09:45

@mysticwhiskey
Tnx for your response man, but I am not powering the effects with one battery, I mentioned that I am using a DC jack for the OS.

@DrNomis
hm, interesting. I actually own a Bajaman Real Tube Overdrive, it was made for me by a local guy, back then, when I had not been not into making pedals yet. I never opened it to look what is inside :)

But nevertheless, considering I am powering the effects separately, one via battery, and one via a regulated power supply dc jack, there has to be a way to wire everything so I could retain this arrangement of powering??
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 10:01

Cortex wrote:@mysticwhiskey
Tnx for your response man, but I am not powering the effects with one battery, I mentioned that I am using a DC jack for the OS.

@DrNomis
hm, interesting. I actually own a Bajaman Real Tube Overdrive, it was made for me by a local guy, back then, when I had not been not into making pedals yet. I never opened it to look what is inside :)

But nevertheless, considering I am powering the effects separately, one via battery, and one via a regulated power supply dc jack, there has to be a way to wire everything so I could retain this arrangement of powering??



With the power supply system that the Baja Real Tube Overdrive uses, you can retain the common ground system and power each circuit at the same time, to get the + and - 9V supplies that the two circuits need to operate, you simply replace the LM7815 with an LM7809, and the LM7915 with an LM7909 3-Terminal voltage regulator, this will give you ample current to run both circuits at the same time, the good thing about this is that you won't need to keep changing out batteries when they go flat, the power supply circuit is easy to build on a piece of Vero/Stripboard, and to power it, you need a 16V AC/1.25 A Plugpack.... :thumbsup


Have a look at the Baja Real Tube Overdrive thread in the Ready To Build Projects forum, you should be able to find a Baja Real Tube Overdrive schematic that you can download and print out... :thumbsup
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 10:41

Yeah, that would be cool, and I understand that, but, believe it or not, the parts you were mentioning are hard to find here where I live, in Serbia.

So, what the bunch of you are tellin' me, is that there is no way of doing this?
So if I was to make them into separate enclosures, and connect via patch cables, I know it would work. Ground is ground, right? There's just positive and negative power supply right?

Cmone guys, a bit of good ol' "this wire goes here and that wire goes there" would do all the difference for me, obviously :mrgreen:
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 10:52

Cortex wrote:Yeah, that would be cool, and I understand that, but, believe it or not, the parts you were mentioning are hard to find here where I live, in Serbia.

So, what the bunch of you are tellin' me, is that there is no way of doing this?
So if I was to make them into separate enclosures, and connect via patch cables, I know it would work. Ground is ground, right? There's just positive and negative power supply right?

Cmone guys, a bit of good ol' "this wire goes here and that wire goes there" would do all the difference for me, obviously :mrgreen:



It just so happens that my local Jaycar Electronics store stocks both the LM7809 and the LM7909 3-Terminal voltage regulators, and they are only $1.65 Australian each, what I could do is buy two of each and send them to you in the mail if you like.... :thumbsup


As long as you are not shorting out a power supply system, you can connect a positive ground directly to a negative ground.... :thumbsup
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Nocentelli » 09 Aug 2011, 10:58

edit - Dr Nomis in like flint (or flynn)....

There is no way to do this with "a bit of wire" - You need a power supply arrangement capable of delivering a) ground b) 9 volts POSITIVE with respect to ground AND c) 9 volts NEGATIVE with respect to ground. You can do this several ways that have already been described to you: Either use two batteries, or use a battery a battery and a regular +9v supply, use a bipolar supply run off two different 9 v regulators (like bajaman), or use a chip like the Max1044 to output + and -9v ... there are maybe other ways, but i'm pretty sure you cannot invert the voltage with a piece of wire. I have read several threads at several websites on this subject and there appears no easy fix.

If you cannot get the parts, i can send you a suitable chip.
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 11:35

I honestly cannot believe you guys would go through the trouble and send me the chip, or the parts!
I am very, VERY, pleasantly surprised! :thumbsup Cudos to you fine gentlemen!

It's just...I am a little confused - this is my current arrangement on the pedal

input jack (tip goes to Input, as shown on this dpdt picture) => Orange Squeezer dpdt Image => then directly to the Rangemaster dpdt Image => and from there to the output jack. (ok there's grounding too, but obviously badly done)

If I do the following, I take the input jack ring (or was it sleeve...sorry) ground it to the output jack, I take that down left Ground pole on both of the dpdts and ground them to the output jack, and then I take ground from the dc jack and connect it to the sleeve/ring of the output jack, would that do the trick?
Orange Squeezer being fed by the power supply, Rangemaster via battery.

I read everything you kindly wrote, and that would fall under "you take a battery and a regulated 9V power supply".
Sorry if you already wrote that this what I am aiming at, is impossible, I am currently at work and typing really fast...
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 12:12

Here's an alternative way of wiring up the Orange Squeezer, Rangemaster and footswitches:


The resistors for the leds can be 1k/5% Carbon film types, or 1k/1% Metal film types.
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 13:21

Yes yes yes...that part I already know :D But THANKS A MILLION fine chap! :thumbsup

Grounding? :mrgreen:

I mean, the wiring doesn't show where the ground wires go, and that's what I need.
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 13:31

Cortex wrote:Yes yes yes...that part I already know :D But THANKS A MILLION fine chap! :thumbsup

Grounding? :mrgreen:

I mean, the wiring doesn't show where the ground wires go, and that's what I need.



Ah okay, you see these symbols in the drawing I posted:


These points in the wiring diagram are connected to a common circuit ground.... :thumbsup


Have a look at the Baja Real Tube Overdrive Schematic, taking note of the power supply section, there's a point labelled 0V, this is the common circuit ground which connects to the footswitches, in/out sockets, and FX circuit boards, you'll also notice that the power supply also has a +V and -V supply rail, the +V will go to the Orange Squeezer, and the -V will go to the Rangemaster, the 0V will provide the common ground for both the supplies and signal path.... :thumbsup
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Nocentelli » 09 Aug 2011, 13:32

Short answer - All "grounds" to the same point (e.g. input or output ground) EXCEPT the black lead from the battery - This needs to go to the Rangemaster power rail (-9v) and nowhere else. Also, make no other off-board connections to the rangemaster's -9v power rail.

Longer -

Cortex wrote:If I do the following, I take the input jack ring (or was it sleeve...sorry) ground it to the output jack, I take that down left Ground pole on both of the dpdts and ground them to the output jack, and then I take ground from the dc jack and connect it to the sleeve/ring of the output jack, would that do the trick?
Orange Squeezer being fed by the power supply, Rangemaster via battery.

I read everything you kindly wrote, and that would fall under "you take a battery and a regulated 9V power supply".


That sounds absolutely fine - The grounds on the on/off (bypass) switches simply ground the input when you bypass the pedal to reduce the chance of oscillation/noise when the input is disconnected and left "floating".

[please can someone more experienced check the following and confirm my thinking - I'm still pretty green....]

The only issue I think you might have with using a battery is that you need a way of disconnecting it when not in use, or it will drain completely in a matter of hours/days/weeks depending on the current draw of the circuit: I think a single transistor boost will be fairly low, but it's worth saving the battery. You could add a toggle switch to disconnect the red battery lead from the Rangemaster when you stop playing OR use a stereo input jack, which is the standard method. This would normally (in a single, "negative ground" circuit pedal) be wired as follows: Tip > to switch input, ring > to battery negative (black), sleeve > to all other grounds (including the circuit "power ground"). This disconnects the battery from the circuit when you unplug because a mono instrument jack will "bridge" the ring and sleeve lugs when inserted, and will disconnect the "power ground" from the battery when removed.

However, in your circuit, you need to wire the RED (positive) lead from the battery to the ring. The battery clip black wire should be connected to the Rangemaster -9v supply rail, but you must not connect any other ground to the Rangemaster -9v rail. You will then need to run a ground lead, e.g. from the output ground, to the rangemaster's "ground" rail.

The way I understand it, the circuits can see only potential difference/voltage: The orange squeezer needs to see a "ground" reference voltage, and another voltage that is 9 volts more positive. The Rangemaster wants a ground reference, and another voltage 9 volts more negative - You will do this by using the red lead from the battery as the ground reference ("positive ground") and using the black battery lead as a voltage that is 9 volts more negative ("negative supply"). If you connected the Rangemaster's negative power rail to the (guitar's) input ground, or the (amplifier's) output ground, you would be effectively shorting the rangemaster's power rail to ground: It wouldn't matter whether the supply rail was -9v (like the Rangemaster) or +9v (like the orange squeezer), it is still 9 volts different to the amplifier's ground refence and will short.
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 13:54

Here's the Schematic for the Baja Real Tube Overdrive Power Supply, modded to give + and - 9V:
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby Cortex » 09 Aug 2011, 16:23

THANK YOU guys!

Hm...it's strange I just double checked on the web site of my local store and they have the volage regulators in stock! Aaaaah the happiness... :)

So, I think that I will build this thing that Dr Nomis so kindly drew for me :thumbsup :thumbsup Just one final question, on the left side of your drawing there are two wires going from the 16V current source, just to make sure, that's just two separate wires connected to the same hot lug of the jack?
Hm, since the store is closed for today, I better make a daisy chain for my Real TUbe Overdrive power supply :)

SInce we are mentioning it, what type of tubes are yoo using with yours, if any of you have it? The Baja Overdrive of course that is...

I'm using JJ ECC83S and I am more than satisfied. It is by far the best overdrive there is. I've never really been a fan of tube screamer type of pedals, ocd, tube overdrive, rangemaster, that's the stuff for me :applause:
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Re: + and - ground pedals, into one enclosure, how to ground

Postby DrNomis » 09 Aug 2011, 16:47

Cortex wrote:THANK YOU guys!

Hm...it's strange I just double checked on the web site of my local store and they have the volage regulators in stock! Aaaaah the happiness... :)

So, I think that I will build this thing that Dr Nomis so kindly drew for me :thumbsup :thumbsup Just one final question, on the left side of your drawing there are two wires going from the 16V current source, just to make sure, that's just two separate wires connected to the same hot lug of the jack?
Hm, since the store is closed for today, I better make a daisy chain for my Real TUbe Overdrive power supply :)

SInce we are mentioning it, what type of tubes are yoo using with yours, if any of you have it? The Baja Overdrive of course that is...

I'm using JJ ECC83S and I am more than satisfied. It is by far the best overdrive there is. I've never really been a fan of tube screamer type of pedals, ocd, tube overdrive, rangemaster, that's the stuff for me :applause:



I'm assuming you mean the wire coming from the junction of the two diodes, yeah, that's just one wire going from the two diodes to the "Hot" connection of the DC jack, the other connection is from the common circuit ground to the other connection of the DC jack, note that the plugpack needs to be an "AC" type, not a regulated DC type, otherwise it won't develop the -V supply..... :thumbsup


Yes, I've still have my Baja Real Tube Overdrive pedal, and I'm really happy with it, it sounds great, I'm using a 12AX7 tube I got from a defunct Trace Elliot Tramp head, I'm not sure what brand it is, but it does sound good, here's a pic so you can see what it looks like:
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