Wampler - Ace Thirty  [traced]

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Wampler - Ace Thirty

Postby Mbas974 » 23 Nov 2013, 00:34

As far as I know on 29 will be released.... on 28 should be cloned ? :-)
6 tranny ( 1 smd) and 1 TL ... looks familiar to mu-amp family.

Nice the idea of 30-15V headroom, I think i will implement it on my Galileo.

The Brett's demo is really cool ( a part his The Edge style... )

Another great pedal.

Red led clipping, nice one !!


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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby MoonWatcher » 23 Nov 2013, 15:41

Is that board mounted jacks I see? Not a big fan of those.

Why is it there are instances where the power jack isn't flush with the box edge? Hopefully this gets changed in a revision.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby astrobass » 23 Nov 2013, 18:01

Personally I don't care one way or the other about mounting the board to the jacks. I'm not exactly delicate with my things and I've never managed to damage a pedal while plugging it in. If that's a real issue for you, I'd be very curious to see what you're doing.

The round hole for a square DC jack tweaks my OCD a bit though.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby Mbas974 » 23 Nov 2013, 20:34

The question is... where is the charge pump ??

Is it 9V pedal ??

j113, bs170, j201, & Tl072 what a cocktail :-) !!
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby coldcraft » 24 Nov 2013, 14:35

who said it needs a charge pump to do its thing...
Black Dynamite wrote:you need to shut the fuck up when grown folks is talkin.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby candletears7 » 25 Nov 2013, 05:44

Think i read somewhere there is a charge pump incorporated somewhere in it...if I could make out the font on that IC it could say MAX1044...
Anyway, Brian's a cool bloke, he'll probably offer up the circuit block descriptions soon enough...
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby Ice-9 » 29 Nov 2013, 20:07

candletears7 wrote:Think i read somewhere there is a charge pump incorporated somewhere in it...if I could make out the font on that IC it could say MAX1044...
Anyway, Brian's a cool bloke, he'll probably offer up the circuit block descriptions soon enough...


Well if you watch the cool youtube vid posted above, it is a time lapse of the pcb being built and you will notice that both the 8 pin IC's are labelled TL072. Sorry no charge pump going by the vid.

Classy video of the build going on there :applause: Nice one Wampler.
It's fairly straight forward, if you want to start it , press start. You can work out the rest of the controls for yourself !

No silicon heaven ? preposterous ! Where would all the calculators go ?
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby jallenshaw » 29 Nov 2013, 22:09

Ice-9 wrote:
candletears7 wrote:Think i read somewhere there is a charge pump incorporated somewhere in it...if I could make out the font on that IC it could say MAX1044...
Anyway, Brian's a cool bloke, he'll probably offer up the circuit block descriptions soon enough...


Well if you watch the cool youtube vid posted above, it is a time lapse of the pcb being built and you will notice that both the 8 pin IC's are labelled TL072. Sorry no charge pump going by the vid.

Classy video of the build going on there :applause: Nice one Wampler.


Here's a nice fairly hi-res pic......if we had a comparable shot of the flip-side, we'd be on our way!

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/0Jdj561e9_s/maxresdefault.jpg
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby jallenshaw » 29 Nov 2013, 22:50

On the above linked picture, what is in the J113 space (upper left, between and just above the gain and cut controls)??
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby Ice-9 » 29 Nov 2013, 22:57

jallenshaw wrote:On the above linked picture, what is in the J113 space (upper left, between and just above the gain and cut controls)??


A j113 is in there, it is a SMD part which has been soldered to a small pcb and fitted into a through hole space.
It's fairly straight forward, if you want to start it , press start. You can work out the rest of the controls for yourself !

No silicon heaven ? preposterous ! Where would all the calculators go ?
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby jallenshaw » 29 Nov 2013, 23:18

I thought that might be the case, but why??
There looks to be a regular TO-92 J113 elsewhere on the board (directly down from the Treble pot)
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Re: ACE THIRTY  [traced]

Postby NegationOfNegation » 01 Dec 2013, 19:42

Hi all,

Out of sheer coriosity and driven by interest ;-)
I tried to see, how this pedal works.

Head room 30V?
==============

Sorry, I guess, differences between AC30 and AC15 are ment.

E.g., AC15 with 2xEL84 runs with a cathode resistor of 130Ohms,
and AC30 runs with 4xEL84 runs with a cathode resistor of
50Ohms, so AC15 runs colder (more class AB than class A).

So no charge pump for 30V I guess, pedal runs on 9V.


Screen Shots and Resistor Values:
=================================

For explorirng schematic a photograph of other side of PCB would
be very usefull;-)

Resistor color codes on video seems to be strange, for instance:

Emitter of 2N5089 (pre-booster) is connected to ground via 100
Ohms (value printed on “naked” PCB) or something like 590 k
(color rings on video). Assuming 10 Ohms here, like displayed on
PC board printing seems to make more sense.


Foot switch:
============

Mounted on extra circuit boards

Normal true Bypass for Buffer and for device:

—Left switch layer switches effect in (SND) between input jack
(JI+I2) and X-to-ground (G1, G2 etc.).

—Middle switch layer switches ground from LED- (L-) to
X-to-ground (G1,G2 etc.).

—Right switch layer switches effect out (O2) from Return (O,
RET) to input jack (J2).

On main PCB L- go to an 10k resistor to LED.


Boost-Stage:
============

2N5089,
Input circuit 100pF to Ground
Input circuit 10nF in series to Input (Bass cut) ?
Operation point 4,5-5Volts, nothing like Treblebooster 6-7Volts
operation point.
100Ohms Emitter to Ground
Collector 5.6k to 9V; 470nF --> to Out (Pot 100k log?).


Tone Stack
==========

Like VOX tone Stack
(2*1Meg, 47pF, 22n, 22nF, Bass taper 10k to Ground)
Really scrambled routing (look, where 47pF is)


Last? Cliping stage—the cliping LED
============================================

Seems to be an MOSFET cliping stage like hard one alike booster,
22k drain resistor, 2.2k || 47n source resistor. High drain
resistor, stage seems to run cold (low current). LED is between
gate and source, clipps high positive input peaks. Capacitor 1n
between gate and source, lowpass cliping peaks of LED as well
as enlarges input impedance by bootstraping.



Transistors and ICs:
====================

From top to right:
—bs170: ???
—J113: drain on 9V, buffer or mu-Amp with bs170 ?
—2N5089: Gain Booster.
—J201: drain on bias resistor, cliping stage before tonestack?
—bs170: Cliping stage with LED.
—J113: drain on 9V, source on 10k to ground, buffer ?
—11P06: P-Channel-MOSFET—seems to be a series resistor for 9V.

4 x OPA
from 4.5V, one OPA is biased with 1Meg (input buffer?), two (at
least) are biased with 100k.
12 resistors, 9 capacitors. Could be, this is a filter or a
gyrator circuit to simulate interaction of power amp and speaker
inpedance of an real VOX?


Generally said,
===============

looks like, there is a 3-5 transistor pedal oriented on the
AC15/AC30 schematic. Distortion seems to be realized with FET
(JFET/MOSFET) cliping. OPA seems to be used for some additional
filtering, not for cliping.

cheers.

Torsten

P.S.:
Screenshot of PCB (youtube video) and (possible) cliping stage with
MOSFET and LED:
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby jallenshaw » 01 Dec 2013, 20:40

Well, there's the BOM in one easy shot....thanks for the "capture"

On the 30/15 headroom thing, yes, it's "watts", not volts.......an approximate emulation of the touch response/sag/tonal differences between the AC30 and AC15.
I suspect that once the specifics of that section of the circuit are known, it may be possible to take them to the extreme in each direction to achieve AC50 or AC4 type responses (?)

Thanks again for your contributions on this.

JAS
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby GodSaveMetal » 03 Dec 2013, 21:16

NegationOfNegation, please post the other side of the PCB, thanks!! :applause:
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby jallenshaw » 03 Dec 2013, 22:08

GodSaveMetal wrote:NegationOfNegation, please post the other side of the PCB, thanks!! :applause:


That's a screen grab from Wamplers ACE Thirty teaser video.....pretty sure NoN isn't going to have the flip side shot.

JAS
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby MoonWatcher » 04 Dec 2013, 07:50

NegationOfNegation wrote:P.S.:
Screenshot of PCB (youtube video) and (possible) cliping stage with
MOSFET and LED:

This instantly got me to thinking about the RoG Matchbox:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/matchbox.html

The BS170 at the input was chosen to be more like an EF86. The LED simply protects the mosfet - a zener diode could be substituted in its place.

...I also see what looks like it could be a variation on the 6-way rotary for more tone selections. It would probably work better to replace the rotary with something that would allow for sweep thru the different choices - use a pot, or maybe even two, and go for a more traditional tone stack in the process. That way it's not just a limitation of tone and cut.

There's probably a very good chance that at least one of the four op amp stages is for buffering of some sort. Someone mentioned using the op amps to get particular amp characteristics - it could be done like with the RoG Thor:

http://www.runoffgroove.com/thor.html

It need not be gyrators in that instance. The op amp stages do lend themselves towards bootstrapping a filter to get a more pronounced effect though. The Thor also uses a mu amp stage to simulate the push/pull power amp portion. The J113 might prove to be better for a mu amp in this pedal, as these amps are cathode biased. You see the J113 used more commonly with pedals by a few other companies.

Another possibility is combining the p-channel mosfet with the other BS170 to create a discrete push/pull inverter.

Beyond the BS170 as an equivalent to the EF86 and probably something similar to the cut control in the Matchbox, most of the rest of this is primarily speculation. But it's good to sort of map out the possibilities given all the semiconductors that are there. In the case of Wampler's stuff, there's now enough other amp imitating pedals that you might be able to figure out how the bass/mids/etc. are handled, and why the op amps are there in combination with the transistors. Well, and the boost stage being the bipolar transistor is fairly clear.

I know some of you are probably eager to trace away, but I think the speculation at this point is almost more fun. Seeing the LED near the BS170 was an instant breadcrumb for me. If it were a zener instead, I probably wouldn't have noticed.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby MoonWatcher » 04 Dec 2013, 08:05

Actually, the treble and bass look to be almost verbatim with the RoG English Channel, right down to the pot values:

http://runoffgroove.com/englishchannel.html

...The 47pF cap, the pair of 22nF caps, probably preceded by a source follower FET.

Cut only uses a 50K pot, but that could be sufficient given other changes.

Both the Matchbox and the English Channel have the 33K resistor on the input, so I suppose it would make more sense to replace it with a trimpot to fine tune it.

Did I see a 560pF cap on that pcb? That could either be something bumped up a little coming off the drain like in the English Channel, or the equivalent of SW1B with the Matchbox.

Doesn't Brian like to tweak things on the breadboard a bit? This could be a modular approach using things that work from the multiple existing amp pedals - both his and things like the RoG stuff, or elements from the BSIABII. I also know there have been attempts to make a Rangemaster-equivalent with a silicon bipolar, so maybe that is what the goal was for the boost stage?
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby scott1568 » 04 Dec 2013, 16:56

MoonWatcher wrote:Actually, the treble and bass look to be almost verbatim with the RoG English Channel, right down to the pot values:

http://runoffgroove.com/englishchannel.html

...The 47pF cap, the pair of 22nF caps, probably preceded by a source follower FET.

Cut only uses a 50K pot, but that could be sufficient given other changes.

Both the Matchbox and the English Channel have the 33K resistor on the input, so I suppose it would make more sense to replace it with a trimpot to fine tune it.



Th ROG Englsih Channel was a complete waste of time in my opinion. The only thing it did somewhat well was mimic the EQ curve on clean settings and that was it. There were NO Brian May high gain tones in that box at all....very farty or fuzz like. I just scavenged parts from that kit last night for another project.

Oh, and I tried different jfets, biasing, etc, no luck with that pedal at all.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby indyguitarist » 04 Dec 2013, 18:06

MoonWatcher wrote:Actually, the treble and bass look to be almost verbatim with the RoG English Channel, right down to the pot values:

http://runoffgroove.com/englishchannel.html

...The 47pF cap, the pair of 22nF caps, probably preceded by a source follower FET.

Cut only uses a 50K pot, but that could be sufficient given other changes.

Both the Matchbox and the English Channel have the 33K resistor on the input, so I suppose it would make more sense to replace it with a trimpot to fine tune it.

Did I see a 560pF cap on that pcb? That could either be something bumped up a little coming off the drain like in the English Channel, or the equivalent of SW1B with the Matchbox.

Doesn't Brian like to tweak things on the breadboard a bit? This could be a modular approach using things that work from the multiple existing amp pedals - both his and things like the RoG stuff, or elements from the BSIABII. I also know there have been attempts to make a Rangemaster-equivalent with a silicon bipolar, so maybe that is what the goal was for the boost stage?


Let's be fair though - where did the bass and treble circuit come from? From the vox amp eq! It's a pretty easy guess that we'd do a bass/treble control from a vox style amp if we were trying to mimic the interaction of the controls of the amp, no?
But no, it's not an English Channel. Also, yes, boost is similar to rangemaster style circuit (or what I call "using a transistor as a gain stage, as indicated by the datasheet", using npn silicon.
Last edited by indyguitarist on 04 Dec 2013, 18:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ACE THIRTY

Postby B Tremblay » 04 Dec 2013, 18:08

scott1568 wrote:Th ROG Englsih Channel was a complete waste of time in my opinion. The only thing it did somewhat well was mimic the EQ curve on clean settings and that was it. There were NO Brian May high gain tones in that box at all....very farty or fuzz like. I just scavenged parts from that kit last night for another project.

Oh, and I tried different jfets, biasing, etc, no luck with that pedal at all.


I'm sorry to hear at you had a negative experience with the circuit. I will admit that the crude FET-by-numbers approach does often result in too much gain, but it sounds as though there was some fault in the build.
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