Analogman - King of Tone  [traced]

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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby aquataur » 23 Feb 2011, 08:34

Turnerguitar wrote:Has anybody played this with a Twin Reverb?

Yes. Twins are naturally trebly due to their open back which will exaggerate the problem. The stock KoT is very weak in the bass too and there is a lot of gain involved. Also, I noticed that for example LF353´s sound fizzy.

Turnerguitar wrote:On my peavey steel guitar amp, it sounds killer.


A SG amp usually has a 15 inch speaker in a vented cab. Those don´t extend very much into the treble region which will change tone to the benefit.
I usually roll of the treble almost totally on the KoT, so it sounds very smooth. I also noticed that 1N4148 sound very fizzy, although on paper perfect replacements for the series shunt diode section in the KoT. Experiment with other diodes too. Try the setup I used which does not sound fizzy.

madmac wrote:The plain old IN4001's make a good sub for the 1s1588's.

Not from a technical standpoint. The original diodes are very fast (will affect treble response and compliance), 1N400x are about the slowest you can get.
But they may sound good to your ears anyway.

have fun,

-helmut
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby madmac » 23 Feb 2011, 11:03

Turnerguitar wrote:
Yeah, I've used the MA856 in both I've made as well as the 1s1588. Does the KOT have the trimpots or is that a madbean addition for better control? Do you recon the KOT's trimpots are fully closed? I think my problem was that Twin. When my trimpot was set at half way, it sounded amazing in my solid state peavey (a dang good amp in its own right) but after I closed the trimpot, I played a gig with it and from what me and my dad who was in the audience could tell, it sounded great. It just surprised me that the trimpot would have to be so aggressively adjusted :?


The KoT does indeed have this treble boost trimmer. All the info on the pedal is here http://www.analogman.com/kingtone.htm. I usually find myself wanting more treble if Im playing at home in a small room compared to on stage but I find the adjustment on the tone knob enough without having to touch the trimmer.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby Turnerguitar » 23 Feb 2011, 17:58

aquataur wrote:
Turnerguitar wrote:Has anybody played this with a Twin Reverb?

Yes. Twins are naturally trebly due to their open back which will exaggerate the problem. The stock KoT is very weak in the bass too and there is a lot of gain involved. Also, I noticed that for example LF353´s sound fizzy.

Turnerguitar wrote:On my peavey steel guitar amp, it sounds killer.


A SG amp usually has a 15 inch speaker in a vented cab. Those don´t extend very much into the treble region which will change tone to the benefit.
I usually roll of the treble almost totally on the KoT, so it sounds very smooth. I also noticed that 1N4148 sound very fizzy, although on paper perfect replacements for the series shunt diode section in the KoT. Experiment with other diodes too. Try the setup I used which does not sound fizzy.

madmac wrote:The plain old IN4001's make a good sub for the 1s1588's.

Not from a technical standpoint. The original diodes are very fast (will affect treble response and compliance), 1N400x are about the slowest you can get.
But they may sound good to your ears anyway.

have fun,

-helmut


Yes, the twin is just simply a brighter amp than the Peavey. The peavey is open backed, 15 in black widow speaker with an aluminum dome so it does have great highs. And honestly, it's the most perfect EQed amp I've ever played of course, I can take out the 800 hz which to me is essential for Tele or strat or steel ha. I guess the pedals alright though. Do you suggest putting a bit more bass in the pedal or just leave it the way it is? I think it's fine for me right now just might think about it for the future
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby aquataur » 23 Feb 2011, 22:14

I have followed the recommendation of the madbean rendering to substantially increase the input caps. I also increased the (only) interstage cap that is there. It appears that this also makes a difference towards full-bodied tone.

It depends what you want from an overdrive like that. A fairly clean guitar is far better audible in a mix than a heavily distorted guitar. The desire for h.f. might shift dependent what you want to accomplish.

I personally use this overdrive fairly clean, where it emulates a valve amp in heat; that´s where you have a fairly full bodied signal and not this anaemic thin tone.

For the steel I use a Jansen Steel 100 with a 15incher in a vented cab. This is eminently fine for the steel, but sounds awkward for the guitar and vice versa. The Jansen´s tone shaping (at least for the steel channel) is optimized for a steel, so is the cabinet IMHO.

have fun,

-helmut
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby Turnerguitar » 24 Feb 2011, 04:21

aquataur wrote:I have followed the recommendation of the madbean rendering to substantially increase the input caps. I also increased the (only) interstage cap that is there. It appears that this also makes a difference towards full-bodied tone.

It depends what you want from an overdrive like that. A fairly clean guitar is far better audible in a mix than a heavily distorted guitar. The desire for h.f. might shift dependent what you want to accomplish.

I personally use this overdrive fairly clean, where it emulates a valve amp in heat; that´s where you have a fairly full bodied signal and not this anaemic thin tone.

For the steel I use a Jansen Steel 100 with a 15incher in a vented cab. This is eminently fine for the steel, but sounds awkward for the guitar and vice versa. The Jansen´s tone shaping (at least for the steel channel) is optimized for a steel, so is the cabinet IMHO.

have fun,

-helmut


I run mine at fairly low gains too. Just enough to get that classic rock n roll tone. Like a springsteen or rolling stones tone. Of course, I also use a slight bit for chicken pickin country (although I'm very stubborn to use much on country--I still like clean tele tone best)

I use a Peavey vegas 400 for Steel and Guitar sometimes. I love a tele through 15 in and with a 800 hz cut, so, it sounds fabulous for me. second only to the twin (a close second to my ears!) I once saw an old video of the great country picker here in nashville Brent Mason playing through a nashville 400 and vegas

Any one match this up with a Timmy? Sorry if that has been answered earlier--if so, just don't answer and let me wonder as my punishment :D
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby matt239 » 03 Jul 2011, 21:06

Re: the original Blues Breaker circuit;
In what ways does this differ from the TS style circuit?
How does the inverting op-amp change things?

- The signal is applied to the inverting input of the second op-amp, but the feedback loop still connects back to the inverting input; How does this work? - Is that still negative feedback?
Can someone help me understand how this circuit operates?
Thanks! :)
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby floris » 03 Jul 2011, 22:02

Its basically a booster section (opamp used as non inverting amplifier) with adjustable gain and then a booster/clipping section (opamp used as inverting amplifier) with fixed gain.
The gain structure between the two opamps is such that the low-frequencies are less amplified in the second opamp as the amount of gain increases, to prevent fuzz/farty overdrive.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationa ... _amplifier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationa ... _amplifier

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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby floris » 03 Jul 2011, 22:04

floris wrote:... and then a booster/clipping section (opamp used as inverting amplifier) with fixed gain.

I made a mistake. The second opamp booster's gain is not fixed but is also adjusted by the Gain pot.

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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby matt239 » 04 Jul 2011, 20:04

Ah! OK. I wasn't fully grasping how inverting op-amps work, but the article explains it nicely. Thanks for the link! :)
What is the advantage of using the inverting op-amp here, vs. non-inverting?

I've been reading about the effect of series resistance with clipping diodes. It's interesting that it doesn't just raise the clipping threshold, -though it must also raise it some right?
I like the sound. Clips of the BB sound fairly soft to me.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby floris » 05 Jul 2011, 00:57

I guess the second stage is an inverting amplifier so that the Gain pot, and the nifty way it is used/wired, can adjust the gain of both the first and second amplifier stage.

The series resistance raises the signal gain of the clipping stage while the diodes are conducting. This way there is less difference in the signal when the diodes are conducting and when not, which results into a "softer"/"smoother" overdriven sound (or something similarly subjective).

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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby matt239 » 05 Jul 2011, 08:13

Cool. [smilie=a_cool.gif]
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby slim_blues_boy » 14 Jul 2011, 09:08

hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby Barcode » 14 Jul 2011, 22:57

slim_blues_boy wrote:hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.

why? they take paypal... and credit cards...
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby slim_blues_boy » 15 Jul 2011, 05:21

Barcode wrote:
slim_blues_boy wrote:hi, anyone know where to get MA856 beside from effectsconnection?
if I buy from effectsconnection, I must pay using western union, and the fee is quite expensive.

why? they take paypal... and credit cards...


yes, but for some country they only accept western union only.
I'm from Indonesia by the way.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby KHELSTROM » 22 Nov 2012, 04:49

So I own a KOT V4 with the high gain mod on the red side and I finally got around to opening it up tonight to see whats going on with this high gain mod. The first thing I did was use some denatured alcohol and a brush to remove the sharpie marker from the op amp. To my surprise the chip used on the high gain side is identical to the normal side, JRC 4580D. Next I removed the board to check the values of the pots and again the values are identical on both sides. Volume A 100K, Tone B 25K, Gain B 100K. Last I compared all other components on both sides of the board and the rest were all 100% identical. Pretty funny...

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby rousejeremy » 19 Dec 2012, 16:21

Does the high gain side sound high gain?
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby madmac » 26 Dec 2012, 21:01

rousejeremy wrote:Does the high gain side sound high gain?


It looks like it has the nikko pen H mod...... :? :shock: but I suspect that if there is no difference in sound what so ever then this pedal has surely been shipped standard on both sides?
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby MoonWatcher » 27 Dec 2012, 19:11

KHELSTROM wrote:Image


After yet again seeing pics of the pcb of the KoT, it just makes me want to ask why it takes so long to build one of those things? A Nobels ODR-1 from scratch may have 3 less pots (excluding the pair of trimpots), but a much higher parts count, with a lot more variation in component differences.

Seriously - most of the caps in the KoT are 10nF or 100nF, same thing for most of the resistors. The Bluesbreaker has got to be one of the better DIY overdrive projects for beginners than many others.

I realize it's just begging the question, but it's aggravating to see that pcb and be reminded of the waitlist. But I guess that is neither here nor there in regards to this discussion.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone

Postby Seiche » 28 Dec 2012, 10:51

i guess it's just a way of market control, why flood the market when you can have a constant waitlist and people paying, as opposed to him sitting on boxes of these that nobody wants (because the market is saturated). Then again, I don't know how high demand is. They also build several other pedals and I guess they don't focus all their man power on one pedal.

The pedal itself certainly shouldn't take long to build as there is almost no offboard wiring, etc.
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Re: Analogman - King of Tone Schematics

Postby greggles » 21 Oct 2013, 04:34

does anyone just have the KOT V4 schematics?
Seems everyone is just happy with layouts, and I'm to lazy to trace them out, LOL but would really appreciate the schematics please.
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