Origin of the Ibanez TS-808 Tubescreamer?

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playon
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Post by playon »

mfgobbi wrote:Honest to god...?... the TS808 is the coolest sounding of the 3!!
That was my first thought as well. So who is the guy who originally invented the tube screamer back in the 70s anyway, does anyone know?

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Post by soulsonic »

playon wrote:
mfgobbi wrote:Honest to god...?... the TS808 is the coolest sounding of the 3!!
That was my first thought as well. So who is the guy who originally invented the tube screamer back in the 70s anyway, does anyone know?
A team of engineers working at Maxon! hahahahahaha!
They probably didn't even play guitar! :lol:
"Analog electronics in music is dead. Analog effects pedal design is a dead art." - Fran

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Post by analogguru »

I think the team was located more at Roland/Boss.
But I am sure that they had technical skills and haven´t been only failed musicians dreaming about big money as solder jockeys now.

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Post by playon »

soulsonic wrote:
playon wrote:
mfgobbi wrote:Honest to god...?... the TS808 is the coolest sounding of the 3!!
That was my first thought as well. So who is the guy who originally invented the tube screamer back in the 70s anyway, does anyone know?
A team of engineers working at Maxon! hahahahahaha!
They probably didn't even play guitar! :lol:
Yeah maybe not, but I bet they let guitar players test it and give them feedback. Leo Fender didn't play guitar either.

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Post by minor7th »

analogguru wrote:I think the team was located more at Roland/Boss.
Errr... Not at the initial design stage.

From maxonfx.com (my emphasis)

"Q) What is the relationship between Maxon and Ibanez?
A) Nisshin Onpa Company (Maxon) is an audio electronics manufacturer that has been in business since the mid-1960s. In the early 1970's they developed a line of compact guitar effect units and marketed them in Japan (these models are currently available as the Maxon Reissue Series). The Hoshino Trading Company (Ibanez) soon took notice and licensed the designs from Maxon for distribution around the globe under the Ibanez brand name.

From that time up until early 2002 Maxon was responsible for the design and manufacture of many Ibanez products, including the legendary TS808 and TS-9 Tubescreamers, the rare and collectible Flying Pan, and the popular SoundTank series.

Over the years the companies did less and less business together, until the only unit being built by Maxon was the TS-9 Reissue. In early 2002 Maxon ceased manufacture of the TS-9 Reissue for Ibanez and began marketing several of the original Nine Series models under their own Maxon brand name."

The Ibanez book agrees with this.

There you go. The biggest Bootweeker ever is.... Boss with the SD-1! (runs away, weaving to avoid the missiles...) :thumbsup
m7 [smilie=vibes.gif]

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Post by analogguru »

Maxon was responsible for the design and manufacture of many Ibanez products, including the legendary TS808 and TS-9 Tubescreamers
And what does this proof ?

This is no evidence that the TS-808 was "developed" earlier than the Boss OD-1.....

As far as I know (and my pictures proof) the OD-1 (v1) came first in 1977 (using 1xRC3403) followed by the Maxon OD-808 in 1979 (using 2x1458) followed in 1980 by the Ibanez TS-808 (using 1x4558) and then the Boss OD-1 v2 (using 1x4558).

In 1981 Boss "hit back" by "stealing" and implementig the "Maxon/Ibanez-Tone-control" in their SD-1.

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Post by minor7th »

analogguru wrote:
Maxon was responsible for the design and manufacture of many Ibanez products, including the legendary TS808 and TS-9 Tubescreamers
And what does this proof ?

This is no evidence that the TS-808 was "developed" earlier than the Boss OD-1.....

As far as I know (and my pictures proof) the OD-1 (v1) came first in 1977 (using 1xRC3403) followed by the Maxon OD-808 in 1979 (using 2x1458) followed in 1980 by the Ibanez TS-808 (using 1x4558) and then the Boss OD-1 v2 (using 1x4558).

In 1981 Boss "hit back" by "stealing" and implementig the "Maxon/Ibanez-Tone-control" in their SD-1.

analogguru
You seriously want to get into a big discussion about this? Have you no life? :roll: OK- let me put it to you this way. You have what is one of the most well known fx, with the FF and Wah. Do you think if Roland/Boss were responsible for it, they would be telling everyone every chance they get?

Instead, They quietly slip the SD1 out the door, and say nothing when all the 808-conversions start. So, Oh Great Guru, tell us more! We await your immense insight! [smilie=bowdown.gif]

So, educate us, educate us all about when a circuit becomes and stops being a TS anyway? Did it start when they started using the x4558 chip? Then it's the Maxon. In any other circumstance, since the Maxon Overdrive 1 was released in 1974 (please note that Maxon themselves said 'the early 70s', which is predating Boss which didn't even exist publically until 1977.

Maxon, Ibanez and the rest of the world say it was Maxon. Boss and Roland through their failure to claim bragging rights say it wasn't them.

And if they did, big deal. Have you ever noticed that the AC-30 has a copy of part of an old Gobson amp in it- right down to an error on the schematic? Is Gibson worried? Is Vox worried?

And now... I await being kicked off the forum.
m7 [smilie=vibes.gif]

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Post by analogguru »

And now... I await being kicked off the forum.
:lol: :lol: :lol: And who should do this favour to you?

I don´t know from where you take your "knowledge".... maybe from TGP, HC or similar platforms.....

Lets have a closer look at the the Maxon-Ibanez history:

The oldest Overdrive I am aware of is the OD-850 from 1974 with script logo. As you can see in this schematic:
http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/001/schem ... e_1974.gif
it is nothing else than a BigMuffPi-derivate with a baxandall tone-control.

When you study the service manual of the next OD-850 version (available on the net) you will be able to recognize that even the baxandall-tone-control was replaced by the big-muff-style tone-control.

In parallel we have the green Overdrive II without electronic switching.
When you look at the schematic, you will be able to recognize, that it is nothing else than a Distortion+ derivate with a "tubescreamer style" tone-control. No diodes in the feedback loop of the opamp.

Even the next (electronic-switch) OD-855 version (schematic available on the net) was still a Distortion+ derivate.

The rest is as written above.

If you have any schematics or guts that could proof your "hypothesis" I would be glad to see them. As long as you can´t show up anything to proof your claim it is only the repetition of BS-mojo-sales-talk to me.

analogguru
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Post by playon »

minor7th wrote:Have you no life? :roll:
I think he's already answered that question... [smilie=a_biggrin.gif]

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Post by analogguru »

playon wrote:
minor7th wrote:Have you no life? :roll:
I think he's already answered that question... [smilie=a_biggrin.gif]
Hey cool, playon.....
Now you are eligible to become the president of my fan-club and answer the questions of the groupies....

:lol:

analogguru
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Post by modman »

And now... I await being kicked off the forum.
You can deactivate you account yourself in the profile section. This works better. Thanks!
Please, support freestompboxes.org on Patreon for just 1 pcb per year! Or donate directly through PayPal

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Post by bajaman »

You can deactivate you account yourself in the profile section. This works better. Thanks!
Woooooooaahhhh :shock:
Hey modman - that was heavy :!:
minor7th was only being flippant (I hope)
Come on guys - lighten up :wink: :lol:
hopefully we will get some facts to prove (or proof in AG's case) which came first - the chicken or the egg. I vote for the egg myself :lol:
bajaman

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Post by playon »

Very interesting, thanks for that link.

I notice he sites as a reference that conniving capitalist bastard Mike P: :D :

References:

[1] T. Hughes, Analog Man’s Guide to Vintage Effects, For Musicians Only Publishing, 2004, page 179.

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Post by analogguru »

playon wrote:Very interesting, thanks for that link.

I notice he sites as a reference that conniving capitalist bastard Mike P: :D :

References:

[1] T. Hughes, Analog Man’s Guide to Vintage Effects, For Musicians Only Publishing, 2004, page 179.
"Windbag-twin" would be more precise.....
So this source is not really very reliable to judge over the origins...

And we are not discussing here, who invented the trademark "tubescreamer"... this is clear, it was Ibanez.

The question we are discussing here is:
"Who was the first, who used two or more diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op-amp in a stompbox ?"

All research leads to the Boss OD-1 at the moment.

further suggestions welcome....

analogguru
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Post by Fuzzer »

:lol: , I know;

Anyway, I'm drawn more towards the idea that it was developed by a team, not an individual, as AG stated earlier; but anyway, I thought you could find it useful.

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Post by JHS »

IBZ is only a international brandname of the Fujigen Gakki holding for guitars and FXs. At this time FG had no own company for building electronic products, that's while the manufacuring was done in cooperation with Maxon.

After FG noticed the success of the BOSS OD-1/SD-1 they decided to build a similar product/product line for the international market. The OD-1/SD-1-circuit was protected by a patent granted to Roland/BOSS, so FG made some minor changes to the circuit.

JHS

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Post by MoreCowbell »

The design of the TS-808 is credited to a "Mr. S. Tamura" .
He was the senior engineer at Nisshin Onpa (Maxon)


http://www.bteaudio.com/articles/TSS/TSS.html
http://www.sonicurbs.com/ibanezAD-80/index.htm

Thats the only "credits" I could find. I'm going to assume that both of the pages linked got their info from the credits in the original owners manual, but thats simply a assumption.

Not exactly "concrete evidence", but just something else to add to the other info....

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Post by analogguru »

MoreCowbell wrote:The design of the TS-808 is credited to a "Mr. S. Tamura" .
He was the senior engineer at Nisshin Onpa (Maxon)
As a wrote above:

It is not interesting who "designed" the TS-808 or Toobscreamer or how you want to name the particular product of Ibanez....

The question is:
"Who was the first, who used two or more diodes in the feedback loop of a non-inverting op-amp in a stompbox ?"

And as far as the research shows up until now, I am sure it was not "Mr. S. Tamura" - he was maybe the one who "bootweaked" the Boss OD-1 circuit from 3 to 2 diodes only.

analogguru
There´s a sucker born every minute - and too many of them end up in the bootweak pedal biz.

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