BAJA Korg CX3 Rotary Effect  [documentation]

Original effects with schematics, layouts and instructions, freely contributed by members or found in publications. Cannot be used for commercial purposes without the consent of the owners of the copyright.
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bajaman
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Post by bajaman »

Hi AG
How was rehab? did you pass all your tests? romance any pretty nurses etc.?
I was reading the newspaper - Durex (the condom manufacturer) surveyed the World and found Austrian men to be the most promiscuous in the World, and Austrian ladies wer a pretty close second BUT New Zealand women are rated the most promiscuous in the World :!:
Just thought I'd share that with you - anyway welcome back, hope you are enjoying good health - stay warm - Winter is on the way for you :lol: :wink:
cheers
bajaman

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Post by bajaman »

Okay - time for an update :wink:
I received my 20 x Panasonic MN3007 BBD chips from superseller Hong Kong (thanks Modman :wink: :D ) - they cost me US$22 approximately for 20 pieces - pretty cheap for a 1024 stage BBD chip that plugs straight in to the MN3004 footprint on the CX3 board(pin 1 to pin 1 :wink: ).
So - I plugged them in and doubled the clocking speed by adding another 1n5 capacitor in series with each the existing 1n5 capacitors - I could have used 750p capacitors I know, but i did not have any that value.
How does it sound - very nice - possibly a little clearer and slightly quieter than the TDA1022 chips and definately a keeper - no problems with clocking speed either :D .
Whilst tweaking the unit, I found the effect level to be a tad louder than the bypassed level so I soldered another 100k resistor in paralle with the existing 100k in the virtual earth output mixing op amp ( between pins 1 and 2) - this mod reduces the gain of the mixer and gives a subjectively similar output level whether the effect is engaged or bypassed.
You could replace the 100k resistor fitted with a 100k potentiometer if you want further control over the overall effect level, but I found that 50k ( or 47k) was a beeter balance than the original 100k as fitted.
So - there you have it - the MN3007 chips are easily available - so - no more excuses not to build one :lol:
bajaman

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Post by analogguru »

At the moment the frequency response is limited to about 4kHz. You can get now a much clearer sound (corner-f to 8kHz) by changing (doubling) the corner frequency of the LPF after the HF-part-bbd (upper part at the original schematic) easily by using instead of 680p 330p and instead of 220p use 100p. For the input filter you can use 220p instead of 330p and 68p instead of 100p.

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Post by bajaman »

Hmmm
I never thought about that - I will give it a try - thanks AG :wink:
bajaman

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Post by bajaman »

Hi again
I replaced both the post filter sections with the capacitor values suggested by analogguru.
For the pre filter I used 180p and 56p.
Yes the top end is clearer and it is a worthwhile mod - IF YOU USE THE MN3007 BBD CHIPS :!:
Only one problem with this simulator - it does not do the distorted tube amp thing at all (one of the features of a genuine Leslie speaker cabinet) - the highs can be VERY ice picky through this unit - even with the original chips and filter values :wink: .
I run my pedal into a Mark Hammer "the Crank" box that i built a few years ago - it smooths out those highs and gets me a lot closer to that "Badge" sound when using the bridge pickup on my strat. :lol:
Other low gain distortion pedals like the Clark Gainster etc. would work equally well in this position.
cheers
and thanks analogguru as usual you are always a fountain of knowledge
bajaman

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Post by analogguru »

I replaced both the post filter sections with the capacitor values suggested by analogguru. For the pre filter I used 180p and 56p.
The pre-filter has already been at 8khz. Moving it up to 16kHz will not change much, maybe increase the modulation-distortion a little bit.

(The distortion-part is on the page with the tone-control).

And now a new challenge for bajaman:
If you look at the original schematic, you will se a circuit around Q5/Q6 (starting at C14) looking into the inverting input of IC3 (?). This is the VCA-Section. Make the same again, including the mixing stage with R94 - R97. This will be a second output.

Then we need an inverter-stage which will be connected to D1/D2. The output should feed the second VCA and mixer - and voila, now we are in stereo. Never had time to test it, but should sound even better.

good luck,
analogguru
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Post by vanessa »

Add a small but effective crossover circuit prior to the output to split the circuit high and low (out of phase a big plus) and I believe the shortcomings of the original circuit will be overcome...

8)

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Post by analogguru »

Add a small but effective crossover circuit prior to the output to split the circuit high and low (out of phase a big plus) and I believe the shortcomings of the original circuit will be overcome...
:?:

There even is a crossover in the (original) circuit (at ~700Hz) before the different delay lines.

analogguru
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Post by N0F1 »

My understanding of the brake is that the speaker rotation slows until it stops. It's like just killing the power to the motor. Not exactly sure how you would do this electronically, but would be cool if you could.
That's in fact exactly how a real Leslie behaves when you stop the motors : the rotors/drums keep turning for a while, slowing down until they stop.
As i understand it, the purpose of the brake function was for the user to be able stop the rotors faster to have more control on the end of the effect.

But i think nowadays, on the leslie simulations, "brake time" refers to the time it takes for the effect to ramp down and stop.

Anyways, cool project... that NEEDS a stereo output in my opinion. Leslie cabs are often used as additional speakers (wich already adds some stereo spread all by itself) and then they really send the sound all over the place so i just can't picture a leslie effect in mono.

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Post by bajaman »

If you look at the original schematic, you will se a circuit around Q5/Q6 (starting at C14) looking into the inverting input of IC3 (?). This is the VCA-Section. Make the same again, including the mixing stage with R94 - R97. This will be a second output
This I can follow and understand :wink:
Then we need an inverter-stage which will be connected to D1/D2
This I do not understand - it is the hf VCO input :!:
I think you mean the emiter of Q4 :?: :wink: don't you?
AND what about the unprocessed signal through the mixing resistor R95??

I would be more inclined to separate the hf and lf outputs and mix the unprocessed signal equally through both branches.

As the VCA is only used on the hf section , there should be no need to duplicate it :wink:

Here is what I would do for a pseudo stereo output.

1. duplicate C32, R98, IC3 (only one half required - you could use the other half to invert the signal though), R100, and C33.
2. disconnect R97 and connect it to the duplicate C32 instead(this feeds the lows through the new mixer output).
3. double the size of R95 to 300k
4. add another R95 300k resistor to the R95 and R48 junction. connect the other end to the duplicate C32.

This should give an equal unprocessed signal out of both outputs and processed highs out of one socket and processed lows out of the other one.

I think this is worth trying, but I am more interested in implementing the brake function and fine tuning the ramp up and down speeds individually before I commit any more time redesigning this project - a work in progress.
Please feel free to help out with any further suggestions - what controls the ramp up and down speeds for example.
Cheers
and once again my thanks to analogguru for all his help and encouragement with this project.
Bajaman

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Post by vanessa »

analogguru wrote:
Add a small but effective crossover circuit prior to the output to split the circuit high and low (out of phase a big plus) and I believe the shortcomings of the original circuit will be overcome...
:?:

There even is a crossover in the (original) circuit (at ~700Hz) before the different delay lines.

analogguru
I think if you add a stereo out, you could split the outputs high and low out of phase to get a better Leslie effect. I used to have a CX3 (and played it a lot) its shortcomings was the fact the leslie effect did not sound that realistic. I personally think that if you ran a crossover prior to a stereo out you could nail that real Leslie tone.

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Post by analogguru »

This I do not understand - it is the hf VCO input
I think you mean the emiter of Q4 don't you?
At emitter of Q4 is the FM(-time)-modulated (high-pass filtered) audio-signal. This signal is also amplitude-modulated by Q5/Q6. To achieve this, the triangle-signal from the LFO is feed via R36 to D1/D2 which are used as something like a sine-converter for the LFO-output. This LFO-signal is fed to the modulation input R31/R32 through C 2x (?). The higher the voltage, the higher the signal.
AND what about the unprocessed signal through the mixing resistor R95??

I would be more inclined to separate the hf and lf outputs and mix the unprocessed signal equally through both branches.
To the mixing section:
It is a virtual-ground summing-amp like it is used in mixing consoles.
So all the signals are mixed together:
1.) the original signal via R95
2.) The bass signal via R97
3.) A part of the treble-signal via R94
4.) And another part of the Treble signal via Q5/Q6

a.) You cannot locate bass frequencies with your ear, so they can be in mono.
b.) Assuming that the (much more complex) leslie-process is a moving between left and right speaker of the treble part, the signal shoulds appear one time in the left speaker and at the other time in the right speaker.

To achieve this we duplicate the mixing-stage including the VCA, BUT we will feed the second (now right) output with an oppposite control voltage than the left (old mono) output. So we need an inverter to invert the control voltage of the LFO which is present at R36/D1/D2/C2x.

After this at one time the left vca gets A high CV and the right a low CV and at the other time the left VCA gets a low CV and the right a high CV.

So the signal-part of (only) the treble part seems to be moving between left and right output .
As the VCA is only used on the hf section , there should be no need to duplicate it
see above.
Here is what I would do for a pseudo stereo output.

1. duplicate C32, R98, IC3 (only one half required - you could use the other half to invert the signal though), R100, and C33.
2. disconnect R97 and connect it to the duplicate C32 instead(this feeds the lows through the new mixer output).
R97 must be feed to both mixing stages, bass is in mono but Frequency-modulated, we need it in both signal paths.
3. double the size of R95 to 300k

4. add another R95 300k resistor to the R95 and R48 junction. connect the other end to the duplicate C32.
Changing the value of R95 will increase /decrease the modulation effect. Without the original signal no modulation, so we need in both signal paths the resistor - R95a and R95b.
This should give an equal unprocessed signal out of both outputs and processed highs out of one socket and processed lows out of the other one.
see above, bass in mono, treble moving left-right is the goal.
Please feel free to help out with any further suggestions - what controls the ramp up and down speeds for example.
So simple questions :wink: - very easy:
C17 and R46, R47 and D3 control the up/down ramp for the treble ("horn") LFO and C31 with R84 control the bass LFO ramp.
D3 is something like a "brake-function" for the horn speaker.
I think if you add a stereo out, you could split the outputs high and low out of phase to get a better Leslie effect.
I understand...you mean to invert the signal at Q4 before mixing with the rest like it is done in stereo-chorus. Yes would be another possibility but can cause problems with out of phase in mono. But this is general a problem of that configuration that the stereo-leslie effect will loose some effect if you would listen to it in a mono-mix.
I think this is worth trying, but I am more interested in implementing the brake function and fine tuning the ramp up and down speeds individually before I commit any more time redesigning this project - a work in progress.
No problem at all..... after this explanations you only have to wait a little bit until the "super-duper-cx-stereo-rotary-effect" will appear on the overprized boutique market... only who and which name... maybe it will get the name "rotary-probe", "rotary-vibe", "cesar of rotary" or simply "Full (spinning wheel) tone" ? But be sure to save at least $500,-- to buy such a unit...

analogguru
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Post by bajaman »

Okay - now i understand you analogguru - I duplicate the virtual earth mixing resistors R94, R95, and R97 and invert the control voltage from the hf VCO to modulate the duplicate VCA (Q5, Q6) feeding through the duplicate C28 (10uf). Sorry I misunderstood your original post.
Would an inverting op amp with 2 x 10k resistors be suitable for the CV inverter stage?

Looking at the ramp up and down times, am I correct in assuming that the CR time constant for the bass section is 4.8 seconds?
The treble section time constant is 1 second?
How does D3 in series with R47 affect this time constant? Does it make the speed change from fast to slow quicker than from slow to fast?
My prototype seems to slow down too quickly - if i increased R47 or R46 would this give a longer time between slow and fast speed change?
Having some degree of control over these ramp up and down speeds would be good. For instance I feel it should take longer for the bass to ramp up and quicker to slow down. once i get these speed changes sorted out, I will look into the brake function ( gradually slowing both bass and treble to a standstill condition, regardless of slow or fast speed setting)
thanks AG
bajaman

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Post by Stephengiles »

I am possibly being exceptionally thick here, but where is the link to the schematic please?

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Post by analogguru »

Sorry, but the links to the factory-schematics were posted in another (previously) Korg CX-3 threads:

http://www.phpbbserver.com/freestompbox ... stompboxes

scroll down for the postings of vanessa.

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Post by Stephengiles »

Many thanks, I'm sure that I've seen those circuits somewhere else - on a French site maybe??

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Post by bajaman »

I have the complete CX3 service manual if anyone is interested PM me with your email address - sorry nothing new though and the quality is only a little bit better - those Korg guys hand drew everything in those days :lol: :wink:
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Post by bajaman »

I had a play through my prototype build this morning - it is lunch time here :lol: , and it is definately clearer after fitting the MN3007 BBDs, doubling the clocks and increasing the LPF corner frequency in the high section - thanks analogguru - I will try the stereo mod in the next few days. Anyone got any ideas on how to slow the oscillators down to a stop condition (brake function) :?:
Cheers
bajaman

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Post by bajaman »

Analogguru - your assistance again please.
Regarding ramp up and down times for the hf section.
Am I correct in assuming the the time taken to ramp up speed from slow to fast is the time constant of R46 and C17 - 1 second, and the ramp down time constant is the time constant for R46 in parallel with R47 and C17 - 0.24 seconds, or is it the reverse or something completely different?

Regarding brake function.
If I used a dpdt switch and connect it so that it breaks the wipers to R104 and R107 of the frequency trim pots would this have the desired effect of gradually slowing both oscillators to a standstill condition?

thanks
bajaman

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Post by bajaman »

analogguru - bump!

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