Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...

Postby analogguru » 02 Jan 2008, 00:30

modman wrote:Somebody seems to know more, or pretends to...

http://www.treblebooster.net/or.html

The BSM OR model is based on the Orange Treble & Bass booster made in the late 60's in England, as used by David Gilmour in Pink Floyd. The OR model includes a tone control which allows an extraoridinary amount of versatility. When set to maximum, the unit produces a very glassy tone. When a middle setting is dialed in, the result is a punchy tone with a mids emphasis. When set to minimum, the unit produces a very bassy tone with a fat bottom end. When used with a good tube amp, the unit is capable of producing the tone which helped create epochal masterpieces such as "Umma Gumma"(1969), "Meddle" (1971) and "Dark Side of The Moon"(1973). Wishbone Ash"s Andy Powell and Ted Turner were also dedicated users of the original Orange Treble & Bass booster, which helped create the band's searing dual guitar harmonic rock style like on the famous album "Argus", which was voted in british polls as "Best Album of the Year" (1972) or "Live Dates" (1973). The long yearned for new edition, now issued under the name OR from BSM, includes the same germanium transistors as the original 1960's version.


This is not a reliable source, because thats only sales-talk bullshit...
Did you ever beleive in any sales-talk(-lies) ?

I bet that the guy(s) from BSM have never seen an orange booster in real life and are only building a box from the geofex schematic.

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Postby Goop_buster » 02 Jan 2008, 00:40

bajaman wrote:I checked my Colorsound folder - I do not have it :cry:
It is a Colorsound POWER BOOST schematic that we are looking for here :wink:
bajaman

The CS Power boost is supposed to have the same circuit as the CS overdriver. At least stated so here
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.castledi ... erdrv.html
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Postby Torchy » 02 Jan 2008, 00:45

Last edited by Torchy on 02 Jan 2008, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Goop_buster » 02 Jan 2008, 00:54

analogguru wrote:
The Apollo Bass is also a hot tip, since there have been Vox guitars with built in Effects similar to the plug-in boxes.... Maybe in an Vox Apollo was a V840 Bass-Treble Booster inside, and the schematic is from there ?

analogguru

Fits the description from the apollo bass here:
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/vox-a ... ar-05/7098

"The treble/bass boost is way ahead of its time and works well. It works like an active tone control on a single knob, and it can take you from McCartney mud to Duane Eddy twang. This circuit was also offered by Vox as a standalone unit. "
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Postby modman » 02 Jan 2008, 03:59

This is VOX V8401? Blueguitar also lists it as such
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electron ... php?id=615

here's some japanese testing response curves with the Jen version:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ichian/analo ... t_freq.htm.
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Postby Bernardduur » 02 Jan 2008, 12:19



I bought one in '96; great pedal! Has a different PCB then the ones you buy now. Also has a different schematic (but close) then the one posted
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Postby soulsonic » 02 Jan 2008, 12:38

It looks like a fun circuit to play with.
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby Goop_buster » 02 Jan 2008, 23:53

analogguru wrote:

The schematic of the "Orange T&B Booster" was traced and provided by Angelo Marruzzi, a musician doing some technical jobs on the westcoast too.

The only problem is that it seems, that nobody ever has seen an Orange Booster in reality and there is no evidence that it ever existed. Maybe there was a booster in an orange box... Or maybe it was the Vox Booster which was mixed up as Orange - both made british amplifiers...


There are some written info about the box that Marruzzi traced somewhere.
I was described as hammerpaint grey and the orange label did not automatically link it to the orange amp company. Perhaps ..If this was a late 60´s box chances are that were not made in house (import?) and just re- labeled and sold in the orange shop (or perhaps no connection at all)

Perhaps try to e-mail maruzzi and ask him about it?
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Postby analogguru » 03 Jan 2008, 00:07

I am only aware of orange-branded-stuff which was produced by colorsound and mixers which were produced by canary (and also sold as orange products).

Perhaps try to e-mail maruzzi and ask him about it?


Good idea, would you do that ?

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Postby Goop_buster » 03 Jan 2008, 00:30

analogguru wrote:I am only aware of orange-branded-stuff which was produced by colorsound and mixers which were produced by canary (and also sold as orange products).

Perhaps try to e-mail maruzzi and ask him about it?


Good idea, would you do that ?

analogguru


Sure I can at least try :D The icing on the cake would be if he would share some pics
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby BJF » 03 Jan 2008, 03:08

analogguru wrote:
If we look at the design of the claimed "Orange T&B Booster" it makes sense when we assume for the base-resistor in doubt a value of 68k or 82k.


Hi,

why would you jump to that conclusion?

Strange though that there seems to be no existing unit and no I have not heard of this booster.
If it is connected to Shin Ei, have you checked if there are any Uni-Vox boosters?



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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby analogguru » 03 Jan 2008, 03:35

BJF wrote:
analogguru wrote:
If we look at the design of the claimed "Orange T&B Booster" it makes sense when we assume for the base-resistor in doubt a value of 68k or 82k.


Hi,

why would you jump to that conclusion?


By simply applying and reversing the design rules:

Nobody was looking for a distorting-box when thinking of a (bassd/treble)-booster. So we are looking for maximum headroom.

the emitter resistor is added as a current feedback to achieve temperature stabilization. At the emitter resistor should be normally appprox. 1V (or 10% of the supply voltage) for the best stabilization effect.

The current through the collector and emitter resistor is equal.
So if the collector is biased at 5V we achieve max headroom with a current flow causing a voltage drop of 0,8V at the emitter resistor - which is reasonable.

The voltage difference between B and E is approx 0,65V. So the base has to be biased at 1,45V. Now: with which value for the lower bias resistor can be achieved that at the base is 1,45V when the upper resistor is 470k and the supply voltage is 9V ?

Strange though that there seems to be no existing unit and no I have not heard of this booster.
If it is connected to Shin Ei, have you checked if there are any Uni-Vox boosters?

Have fun
BJ


At the moment my main interest is for the Jen/Vox treble-bass booster schematic/guts to compare it with those two obscure schematics.

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Postby BJF » 03 Jan 2008, 03:44

Hi,

Interesting that the forward voltage of an OC71 would be assumed to be
0V65........

What do you hope to find in the VOX treble booster?

Also the circuit would distort when in full trebleboost

Compare the tape echo tricks of Hank B Marvin: set the heads at the onset of distortion to create a shimmer effect.



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Postby analogguru » 03 Jan 2008, 03:58

BJF wrote:Hi,

Interesting that the forward voltage of an OC71 would be assumed to be
0V65........

Sorry for the mistake.... was a quick answer before going to bed.
Normally it should only be necessary for experts like you to refer them to the book mentioned earlier today.
I think you are also a little bit tired now... because there is not an OC 71 used, it is an OC 76....

So the above should read:
0,8V + 0,2V = 1V

and:
with which value for the lower bias resistor can be achieved that at the base is 1V when the upper resistor is 470k and the supply voltage is 9V ?
Whats your suggestion ?

What do you hope to find in the VOX treble booster?


Again... a little bit tired too ? for your better understanding:

As I wrote also at the beginning of this thread I am looking for the Jen/Vox Treble/Bass-Booster (V8401) - and not the Treble Booster (V806) - to compare it with the Orange/Apollo schematics if they match.

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Postby seniorLoco » 03 Jan 2008, 08:14

"Curiosity may have killed the cat, but it saved the mice, who ate the cheese."
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Postby analogguru » 03 Jan 2008, 08:34



No.....

If you could please be so kind to read the thread from the beginning you would know that I am talking abo0ut this unit:
http://files.muziq.be/pics/vox_v8401_001.jpg
which looks inside like this:
http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/temp/Vox_ ... acks_c.jpg

and can´t be the same, cause it has only one control knob and also uses only one transistor. like shown on the Orange and Apollo Booster schematics.

The colorsound power boost (overdiver) was painted in Orange but hat 3 knobs and 3 transistors.

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Postby BJF » 03 Jan 2008, 11:49

Hi,

Right maybe a bit tired

Here you go


http://www.datasheetarchive.com/datashe ... t50513.jpg

Actually OC75 might be a better choice..... Fß 8K also gives a suitable upper limit
ß=30 for the OC76 isn't that impressive.

Hm, setting top resistor to 470K in a base divider like that using this type of transistor .........

Now the current through the divider should be at least ten times the base current drawn through the top resistor so as the voltage at the midpoint of divider stays in range as a rule of thumb.........

I'd tell a beginner to reduce the total resistans of the divider to about 100K to 200K and then set Uc as refered to ground to 4V5 to 7V5, by adjusting the bottompart of the divider, just to make sure the transistor isn't blown when adjusting and UBE can likely be something like 100mV's to 150mV's

Oh and measure the leak current of the device first to make sure the transistor is good,and good luck finding a good one

'Jen/Vox Treble/Bass-Booster (V8401) ' Hm, I wonder if I did not see one in the Dennis Collection

Would not be surprising if there were similarities

Have fun
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Postby vanessa » 03 Jan 2008, 18:56

The fact that VOX had something similar to the schematic that's being called the Orange TBB may point to some validity that there was an OTBB made at one time.
Most likely if it actually existed it was made in very small numbers or was just a prototype given to the likes of Gilmour and others for testing, then the design was passed off to be made for VOX.
I am curious to know what that schematic [OTBB] was taken from and if there is a photo to confirm its existence.
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Postby soulsonic » 03 Jan 2008, 19:51

I really wonder if the OTBB came from anything real because that circuit is nearly unusable; the tone control adjusts from way too thin/bright to completely dead/muddy, and in the middle it's just blah nothing. The only time the circuit is even capable of any sort of boost is when the tone is turned all the way up to the nasty treble side. It's an INCREDIBLY disappointing circuit. The only way it sounds good is if you drop the tone control entirely and build it as a Rangemaster... I mean, just build a Rangemaster. One of my favorite activities is modding the Weber Texas Cattle Drive kit to just be a hot Rangemaster... sooooo much better that way.

I could see the Apollo/OTBB circuit potentially being an onboard circuit on a guitar. If it were something that was always on as part of an active tone control system, then maybe I can see it working, but never as a standalone pedal.
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Postby vanessa » 03 Jan 2008, 21:40

It's not really that great of an "active" tone control. Also if Gilmour was actually using this box as a staple of his recording gear the manufacturer would be telling the whole world right? They would be gearing up and making thousands of them.

The site Gilmourish used to say that he used one of these live for overdrive in the very early years. Then later they had to take it off his board because it was too unstable. After that he used it exclusively in the studio as his overdrive until he started using the tubescreamer. I even seem recall them quoting a Gilmour guitar tech about this and as to why it was taking of Dave's live board and replaced with the Colorsound Power Boost.
Strange, but there is now no reference regarding the OTBB on the Gilmourish site anymore. Maybe they know something?
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