Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...

Postby frank.clarke » 03 Jan 2008, 23:31

The Apollo may work perfectly in a bass guitar, it gives you the passive cut you want, plus the added versatility of a treble boost.
I don't think the circuit was intended as a pedal, unless the designer knew nothing. The 3-knob tonebender's Q3 would be a plausible GE Treble/Bass booster, I'm sure you guys can come up with better designs with 5 minutes thought.

So the pedal hypothesis is unnecessary. Until we see one, of course. For now, I can live with onboard circuit, which somebody may have built as a pedal and painted orange.

Need more data, Watson, I can't make bricks without clay!
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Postby analogguru » 03 Jan 2008, 23:56

frank.clarke wrote:So the pedal hypothesis is unnecessary. Until we see one, of course.


not really... when you look at it in a scientific kind you work with the "zero-hypothesis". You have different hypothesis until you can´t proof them they are not valid, but you have to follow them to assure that they are not valid.

I think I laid down in my first post my possible hypothesises.

The most valid seems to be the Vox 8401 similarities, cause vox build this (or earlier versions) also in guitars and basses.

So as written my main interest at the moment is to compare the 8401 with the Orange-TBB and Apollo-TBB schematic. If there are similarities it could be possible, that the earlier version, the Vox 840 is identical with one of the schematics. ut I doubt that it could be easier to get infos about the V840 directly.

For now, I can live with onboard circuit, which somebody may have built as a pedal and painted orange.


Need more data, Watson, I can't make bricks without clay!


Agreed, for this reason this thread exits....

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Postby vanessa » 04 Jan 2008, 00:37

vanessa wrote:It's not really that great of an "active" tone control. Also if Gilmour was actually using this box as a staple of his recording gear the manufacturer would be telling the whole world right? They would be gearing up and making thousands of them.


I want to add something to this. I've built this and I tried every transistor I could get my hands on and I even had several OC76's of different hfe to try with this. I could never see any reason how or why David Gilmour would have used one of these as his "main" overdrive. It's really a piece of crap for that use. In contrast I can see and hear him using the Colorsound Power Booster.
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby modman » 05 Jan 2008, 03:17

Need more data, Watson, I can't make bricks without clay!

analogguru wrote: (...)
http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/apolobst.gif
(...)
http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/temp/Vox_ ... acks_c.jpg

From the Routing I can say that it doesnt fit to the schematic of the treble-booster circling around. And i can say it could fit to the Orange/Apollo schematics.

3.) Does anybody have a "Vox Treble - Bass Booster" or guts from it or a schematic to compare ?

thanks in advance,
analogguru


You could, but if you look closely at the V8401 tracks you see there is only one component connected to the PS - a biasing resistor mounted vertically to a pad that is connected to the transistor collector (i suppose). That first resistor is connected to another resistor to its right, in its turn connected to another pin of the transistor (must be base). In the Apollo separate resistors are connected to the PS.

Ergo, Apollo schematic is not Vox V8401. QED.
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Postby BJF » 05 Jan 2008, 14:28

Hi,

True an effect like this is more of an always on as opposed to on/off effect when in application
In use the effect could set desired eq for amplifiers that lack a bit of treble in the 'guitar range' while also lower bass.
Sure the Color-sound overdriver/powerboost is excellent driving the normal channel of a Hiwatt/Marshall
and might be more in the alley for overdriving the input stage.

When using a low gain transistor of this generation OCXX e.g. there's a peculiar stabilization suggested for most stable results, not something you'd normally see in guitareffects.
Depending on the device choosen it could also be driven inverted, just as a sidenote

Now seeing the input network, and just for simplicity and also if one would insist on using a high resistans
just one resistor would suffice to allow flow through the base-emitter and that would provide higher input impedance.

Depending on how you'd look at it wether bias is set with one resistor or somethingelse if the other parts are preforming the same function you'd get the same results.


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Postby analogguru » 05 Jan 2008, 15:03

Now did I earn a box of Mozartkügln or not?


Not really yet, because this I knew already - before I started this thread.

This is the newer V8401 si-trannie version, which maybe have been changed/improved over the V840 - which I suspect that could be the matching one (with ge-transistor).

But for the V840 it will be much harder to obtain information.

The question to answer is:
Is on the V8401 the Bass-treble control the same as on the Orange/apollo TB booster or not ?

If yes, than it is more possible that the Vox V840 could match with the Orange/Apollo schematic - and maybe also was part of an Apollo bass/guitar.

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Postby vanessa » 16 Jan 2008, 20:22

If they made the Orange Treble Bass Booster I suspect it would have been housed in this. Substitute Phaser with Treble & Bass Booster. I would guess there is truth in that schematic.

Image
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Postby soulsonic » 16 Jan 2008, 21:11

I think the only possible truth is in the name. There's no way that circuit can be correct or the guys at Orange were totally out to lunch. Have you ever built one? I've suffered through that circuit on numerous occasions - it's unusable! They *may* have made a Treble/Bass booster, but if they did, that schematic is sure to be erroneous. I just can't bring myself to believe that such an awful circuit was actually produced and sold by a reputable company.
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Postby vanessa » 16 Jan 2008, 21:35

Having this the first time I've seen an "Orange" pedal in the flesh and with AG's conformation that they have Colorsound circuits in them, I think there may be some truth to that schematic. Why would they bother to RE it and then claim it was an Orange TBB? I would bet it was totally marketed wrong because it is a really garbage booster if that. They then pulled them out of production quick?

I still up in the air about the Gilmour connection. I would almost write it off that this was being confused with the Power Booster, but I remember a long time ago reading something about Dave having to switch to the PB live because of issues with the germanium TBB and from then out the TBB was only used in the studio. I'm pretty sure I read this on Gilmourish.com but it seems like this has been pulled?
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 05 Nov 2008, 20:50

I mailed with Angelo Marruzzi (who btw also made the Gammatronics pedals) about the Orange T&B Booster: http://filters.muziq.be/model/orange/booster

I asked him to confirm the last line (Probably...), that's how I understood what he told me.
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby analogguru » 05 Nov 2008, 21:22

Thanks for that great research.

After tracing the V8401 I am pretty sure that these boosters are clones from the Vox V840 cause the "further developed" V8401 uses the same tone control as the mystery boosters which I haven´t seen elsewhere.

I don´t have time now to write more about this matter, anyway, here is the "further developed" (Jen made):
Vox V8401 Treble-Bass Booster schematic
for comparision purposes.

A frequency-plot can be found here:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/ichian/analo ... t_freq.htm

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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby theehman » 17 Feb 2009, 14:42

analogguru wrote:
The same applies to the "Apollo Booster": Nobody ever seems to have seen one in real life except Ron Neeley II who provided the schematic.
Beside the possible mistakes there is no evidence that Apollo ever made such a booster.



2.) Does somebody have any evidence (photo, advert, real unit) that there ever existed an mysterious "Apollo Treble and Bass Bosster" ?


thanks in advance,
analogguru


Guilty as charged. I am Ron Neely II (note the correct spelling of my last name). The Apollo Treble-Bass Booster is a real thing. I bought it at a local appliance store which used to carry musical instruments and products (also bought a NOS triangle-knob Big Muff for $35). I don't remember exact details but it was in a long narrow metal box with a knob and an on/off slide switch. I no longer own the unit so I can't provide pics. I traced the schematic and I believe I still have my original drawing at home. I think the .022 actually connects to the base of Q1 and the pot routes the input signal through either capacitor.
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 17 Feb 2009, 14:46

analogguru wrote:
The same applies to the "Apollo Booster": Nobody ever seems to have seen one in real life except Ron Neeley II who provided the schematic.
Beside the possible mistakes there is no evidence that Apollo ever made such a booster.



2.) Does somebody have any evidence (photo, advert, real unit) that there ever existed an mysterious "Apollo Treble and Bass Bosster" ?


thanks in advance,
analogguru

http://filters.muziq.be/model/apollo/treblebassbooster :D
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby theehman » 17 Feb 2009, 15:17

Ron Neely II
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby analogguru » 17 Feb 2009, 19:01

so, now we have a picture of the Apollo Treble Bass Booster and what can we see ?
That it looks very similar to the Vox V840:
http://filters.muziq.be/model/vox/v840
and the Vox V806:
http://filters.muziq.be/model/vox/v806

I wouldn´t be surprised if they were built by the same person. With this my assumption that the "orange" schematic could match to the V840 is even getting stronger.

Now we only need to see guts of the V840.... I think I remember a guy somewhere in Belgium who owns one... :wink:

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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 17 Feb 2009, 20:17

analogguru wrote:so, now we have a picture of the Apollo Treble Bass Booster and what can we see ?
That it looks very similar to the Vox V840:
http://filters.muziq.be/model/vox/v840
and the Vox V806:
http://filters.muziq.be/model/vox/v806

I wouldn´t be surprised if they were built by the same person. With this my assumption that the "orange" schematic could match to the V840 is even getting stronger.

Now we only need to see guts of the V840.... I think I remember a guy somewhere in Belgium who owns one... :wink:

analogguru


Oops :D

I'll have a look at how difficult or dangerous it is to open it :)
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby analogguru » 17 Feb 2009, 20:39

:hmmm: I would say it doesn´t look too complicated:
Image

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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 17 Feb 2009, 21:09

I have it in front of me now, the jack is in the middle on this one and not removable, I'll try to remove the circuit without breaking any wires, IF I can you'll have pictures soon...
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 17 Feb 2009, 21:46

P1000059.JPG


P1000060.JPG


P1000061.JPG


P1000062.JPG


P1000063.JPG
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Re: Vox / Orange / Apollo - Treble and Bass Booster

Postby DiscoFreq » 17 Feb 2009, 21:47

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