Ibanez - UE400 and UE405  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...
drbob1
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Post by drbob1 »

Looks like this thread got lost during the great downtime? Just a quick recap:

These are essentially rackmount versions of the Ibanez stompboxes of the 808/9/10 era (although many of them are subtly to very different) including an MN3007 based flanger and chorus and MN3005 based delay (at least by the AD9 days the Ibanez delay was 3205 based IIRC). The problem is that, without the pedal, you can't engage the pedal in any sort of way, it just sits there...

I've looked at the schematic, but the pedal uses FET switching to turn on the LEDs and do something, I just don't know enough about switching to know what. For some reason, no one was able to answer the question that a simple pic from Ebay did: one of the pins on the connector supplies 15v and connecting that to any other pin turns that segment on. I got a 405 that had the switch removed and all the effects shorted directly to 15v (so it was all on, all the time, an interesting choice). That proved that the theory worked. Next step, I picked up a dip switch (8 segments) at RS and used a ribbon cable from a floppy drive to bring the 5 active pins and 15v out of the box, bussed one side of the dip switch to the 15v and soldered the individual circuits to the other sides. Now I can turn the unit overall on/off, and each individual effect. I think I did lose one thing, I can't get bypass with the whole unit turned off, not sure if that's damage to the input circuit or if the ground needs to be tied into the pedal somehow, but I don't need to bypass the whole thing (since it's a buffered bypass, might as well run the signal thru the buffers anyway and leave the unit as a whole in the circuit-just means I can't turn on all 4 effects at the same time).

Someone here kindly linked me to the connectors, I've got some 1599 boxes, DPDT switches, 9 conductor cable, LEDs and access to a drill press, so I'll be building a footswitch or two (the originals are much bigger than a 1599). Should be able to put 5 switches on there without too much trouble... I do have a couple of questions.

1. I used the link from the Wikipedia article on LEDs and calculated that to get a 2.1v drop across the LED and current in the safe range 0.02A (15-2.1/0.02=700 ohms) I'd need around a 700 ohm in series with the LED? Do I need anything more complex than that?

2. Can I simply run from 15v to lug 1 to circuit for on/off and 15v to lug 2 to LED on/off?

3. Any way to calculate if the LEDs on the pedal are going to draw too much current or how to adjust for the lowest possible useful current draw? Since the original pedal uses that same 15v supply to run 5 red LEDs and 5 FET switches as well as drive the 4 effects and all the LEDs on the box, I assume that I've got enough power?

I'll keep you posted once I get the boxes drilled as to how it's working out.

ultra sonic
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Post by ultra sonic »

The UE foot switches used momentary buttons and a flip flop circuit to switch the effect and run the LED at the same time. Pretty much the same bypass switching scheme as the normal pedals, which you could copy. Considering all of that, you can probably just use non-momentary DPDT switches and run the LEDs off the +15v rail. Since the original foot switch also had an LED per effect, you're probably ok on current draw.

I've got both a 400 & 405, nice boxes that can be scavenged cheaply if you're patient. I especially like the "insta-patch" and extra buffered loop features.

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Post by drbob1 »

The build will be done later today, so I'll let you know how it works out. And yeah, DPDT switches will do the job (I've wired the one I got that no longer had the 8 pin connector with on/off dip switches and it works fine).

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Post by drbob1 »

Well, it took a bit longer than I expected. A few little gotchas....

1. It appears that the FET switching allowed Ibanez to use both + and - grounding in the same box? Anyway, if you use the ground from the cable to ground the LEDs, the two rightmost effects stop working. Isolated from the ground, all work fine. So, it's a bit of a kludge, but I figure in the studio you'll be able to see the LEDs on the unit, and playing out you'll mount the pedal on the board where it has a 9v power supply, so I added a 9v jack to power the LEDs. Used a 2k7 current limiting resistor and it works fine. The only drawback is that each additional switch turned on dims the other LEDs slightly, so with all 5 on at once, you can see it.

2. The 8 pin plug doesn't work exactly like the Ibanez one: it fits OK but the locking ears don't seem to contact the rack unit exactly right. Not sure how one would get around that playing live, duct tape maybe? Also found I had to set it with the pins stuck out farther than the Ibanez version because with them in the inner setting, they didn't make solid contact.

That said, it works a treat, no problems with function. I'll draw up a schematic later, FWIW (5 dpdts and 5 LEDs, not exactly rocket surgery!). Still, since this information isn't available anywhere else on the net, it'd be worth archiving even if it's trivial.

BTW, this is in the wrong forum (should be modern), mods want to move it?

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Post by drbob1 »

Here's the pics and schematic...

BOM is just:
Box
5 DPDT Switches
5 Diodes
2k7 resistor
Series cable from computer, ends removed
TecNec E8M 8 pin video connector (Full Compass)
UE400-405 Footswitch.PDF
(20.15 KiB) Downloaded 303 times
UE400 FS Guts.JPG
Attachments
UE400 Footswitch.JPG

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Post by ebmvitreo »

Thank you so much for posting all of this! My UE400 seems to work well but my footswitch doesn't seem to do anything at all. I know the unit works because all of the effects are on all the time. If I unplug the footswitch the effects all turn off. Do you think my problem lies in the footswitch, cable, or effects unit? Does anyone have a solution?

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Post by drbob1 »

The problem is almost certainly in the footswitch (although the cable could, I suppose, be bad. You can actually test this by using jumpers: jumper from pin 6 (second from the top on the right facing the unit) to 5 and the "Master" light should come on. Jumper from 6 to 5, AND from 6 to anything else and one of the effects should come on. If that works then the unit itself is fine. You can try to get the FS repaired-they're a fairly complicated combination of transistors set up so a momentary switch turns them on, sending the phantom power thru the necessary lines and lighting the lights. If you find and replace the bad component(s) you're good. OTOH, for $40 and a days work, you can build your own...

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Post by dasystem »

crap guys.. i just won a pedal from ebay for my 405 but should have checked here first before buying. Spent 100 bux but the anlaog delay portion isnt working. Any tips on fixing that part?

I swear for almost 6 years I had this box and couldnt find a single post about it, now i find your thread!!!!!! just my luck

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Post by Dirk_Hendrik »

dasystem wrote:crap guys.. i just won a pedal from ebay for my 405 but should have checked here first before buying. Spent 100 bux but the anlaog delay portion isnt working. Any tips on fixing that part?

I swear for almost 6 years I had this box and couldnt find a single post about it, now i find your thread!!!!!! just my luck
UE405_SVC_MAN_pg12.jpg
That's the delay section,

Source:
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/gallery ... 17&pos=104

And therefore a thanks to Michael Kaufman who placed this stuff online.
Sorry. Plain out of planes.

http://www.dirk-hendrik.com

dasystem
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Post by dasystem »

Thank you Dirk for the info and kicking in so quick


Maybe I wrote it wrong. The analog delay from the rack unit works with the ue400's pedal but the pedal i just won for the ue405 will not turn the analog section on.

cheers
- Ryan

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Post by drbob1 »

Someone asked me to build them one of these, it'll be the first and last commercial project I ever build-too much squinting thru solder smoke for not much return. I don't know how you guys that sell pedals for a job survive the boredom?

Anyway, he asked for a blender in addition to the switching capability. I should have take pics before I mailed it, I'll see if I can get him to take pics... I figured since all the inputs/outputs on the UE400 are buffered, I should be fine with a fully passive device. This works because the effects loop on the UE series can be assigned to any position in the chain. I wired the pedal with the input jack split to an output and to the ring of a TRS jack thru a 220 ohm resistor. Another jack is wired to the sleeve with another resistor and a third to the tip. Grounds of the input and output jacks are shared.

Signal goes into the UE400, comes out thru the effects send and is split to the effects return and the TRS jack. The main output then is wired into the sleeve input of the TRS jack and the output of the pedal is drawn from the tip of the TRS. When you plug in a CV pedal, the tip then provides the blended signal to the pedal's output. There's a TPDT switch that turns on the loop (without it the signal goes straight from effects send to return and main out is routed to the output of the pedal) and an LED. In practice, we put the delay as the last in the chain with the effects loop before it. Then, with the delay set to full wet, one can vary the delay amount from 0 to 100% wet with the CV pedal (have to experiment a bit to get the right value for the CV pot, or adjust the 200 ohm resistors). ACtually works pretty well, although I still have a ghost of echo with my Mooger Fooger EP on the 100% dry setting.

The other things that could be done to improve this project:
1. Buffers on all inputs to prevent leakage.
2. Buffered outputs to prevent changes in volume/frequency response
3. A feedback loop, also switchable, so that you could use the delay, set 100% wet AND some of the other effects. With the external blend, the delays could be chorused, EQ'd, overdriven or whatever... Turning the UE400 into a fully modern delay machine.

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Post by drbob1 »

I guess it's time to update this. I did build the control pedal/blender box and it worked fine (I guess since all the outputs on the UE400 are buffered there was no bleed back) although the taper of a Moog CV pedal isn't ideal for the purpose. Here's pics of the "schematic", wiring diagram and the finished pedal...
UE400 blender inside.jpg
UE400 pedal schematic.jpg
As you can see, adding another layer of wiring and a bunch of jacks/switch/LED has led to a rats nest of wires... It could probably be done much more neatly and feel free to update with a nice, clean schematic. Also, the input is designed so that any insert cable will work for the send/return of the effects loop. A "Y" cable would remove the necessity of the TRS jack at the first input, although it would also remove the possibility of buffering that output. I had considered using a "big knob" kind of blender on the side, which would save space and also thought about using a double ganged pot instead of the simple pot used here-which would separate the grounds and just make the whole thing neater.

DEADnihilist
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Post by DEADnihilist »

Did a 5 resistor (680 ohms each) strait off the rail. see any future issues other than exposed wires?https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id ... nref=story

billmag
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Post by billmag »

The connectors for these units are hard to come by.....I happen to find a source on Ebay but they're attached onto a cable. Search for Sony VMC-3P Cable. The connectors themselves were generally used for Video Tape/Camera Recorder. I could not find any of the TecNec E8M anywhere so this appears to be the next best thing. Get them while they're available!! Gold mine..... :D

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Post by Dirk_Hendrik »

Thanks Bill.
I have 2 UE's and they have the plugs. Therefore I'll leave this for someone else. However, this tip may help someone else tremendously! :hug:
Sorry. Plain out of planes.

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lshort
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Post by lshort »

Is there any way to fix a foot switch that Partially works or must I make a new one ? Parts? need two maybe three switches and two leds, one wont turn on and two wont turn off please help, this box is to good to give up on

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Post by Fender3D »

UE's foot switch has 5 flip-flops inside.
they're almost the same as those used in Ibanez stomp boxes.

It's unlikely you fried any transistor...
most likely is switch a problem, try with any momentary SPxT

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Post by Fender3D »

Damn edit button...
UE400_SVC__pg_08x.jpg

billmag
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Post by billmag »

if there are any PCBs inside, you may want to check the copper traces first. I had a DOD R944 that the adhesive on the foam cushions destroyed the copper. This was my last resort after changing/swapping ICs. etc.(big pain in the a**). Hope this little tip helps out!

zsetian
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Post by zsetian »

Thanks to everyone who has helped get this information out here!

As I can no longer find the 8-pin connector on the internet, is there another way to connect some switches to the 405/400 via the pins on the back? I don't need a foot switch (some switches on the unit would be fine), so the length doesn't have to be very long. Any help is appreciated. Pictures are always helpful too if you have them.

Thanks!

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