Interesting opinion on Jimmy Page/Early Zep Tonebender-FZ-1!

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...
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fuzzca
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Post by fuzzca »

I came across this thread on another forum and thought I'd mention it here for the sake of discussion.
The info is from Don Mare, pickup maker, musician.
Link to thread http://www.tdpri.com/forum/just-pickups ... -tele.html

The thread title is "Closest Pickups to Jimmy Pages tele"
don't fall in the "tone Bender" trap..

What was in a TB box was not at all a TB..
Jimmy liked that Tone Bender box best and emptied it out - then put the Rodger Mayer FZ-1 clone into the TB box himself - Jimmy did not really like the TB and was more used to older Gibson type FZ-1 Maestro . so he had Rodger make him a modded version and then re-boxed it into the TB housing.
and Jimmy has always remained pretty much secretive when hes asked about his pedal of that early era -- even thru all these years...

Rodger Mayer - pretty much copied the Maestro FZ-1 ( not FZ1-a)

but he used Mullard OC81 Transistors and Wima Caps.. and other English parts.

his only mod was changing the value of the pots - I have the schematic here
from a Pedal that was made by Rodger Mayer at the time -- there is only about 8 of these pedals ever made - Jimmy Page has one - Jeff Beck got one and a few other big players of the time - the one we have access to here came from a collector who was retiring - the pedal has offers of $3,800.00 on it .

I am friends with the owner who has managed to collect all the correct electronic parts - Mullards - Wimas.. and some others... we have sent the parts to Nick Greer Amplification's.. ( Big Zep Fan) to have Nick assemble and test run the unit for any bugs.. - the pedal as of a few days ago is just now ready to ship to me here - and so it should be here soon - we will test it with the real one!! and see just how close we came???? - if its perfect - then the owner is going to have one more made and the go ahead and sell the original .

basically if you want Jimmy's pedal have a FZ-1 Clone made with the pots swapped to a 1k linear for the fuzz pot -- and a 250k audio on the volume
and that should be very close..
you'll also need a wha with the sweep that the original JEN had like Jimmys JEN wha-wha

the pickup was 5.7k on the recording of lz1 - then rewound to 6.6k for live use as jimmy needed more out of it for the live zep stuff..

the amp was the older 58-59 1624T not the 1961 - Jimmys broke up more - due to what we think is smaller trannys on the 59's -- Jimmy bought it while in a store in england during 1961 but it was no way a 61... it took a while to get product over there by boat ~~~~ and then a while to display it and then actually sell it -- here at home I've seen the same guitars and amps in music stores sold as new that have been in the store up to 6 years that i tracked..

for a close sound minus the wha a modern day Rodger Mayer Mongoose works well with a Fuzz Face mod On a few caps -- the sample sound clip I made at my site is that modded Mongoose pedal thru my 55 Deluxe -
It made me interested in building the FZ-1, when I have a bit of time.

Here's a link to a FZ-1 schematic over at Schematic Heaven
http://www.schematicheaven.com/effects/ ... a_fuzz.pdf

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Post by analogguru »

This guy seems to be one of the bullshit-spreaders.....

1.) If you put a 1k poti (instead of the 50k) for the Fuzz then you won´t need a poti at all.

2.) In the FZ-1 is a 56k in parallel to the 500k poti reducing the total load at the output coupling cap to about 50k. The differences between a 500k and a 250k therefore are marginal and neglectable.

3.) I doubt that Roger (not Rodger) Mayer built an unstable FZ-1 circuit instead of a tonebender circuit.

4.) The use of OC 81, Wima capacitors and a 1k poti leads me to assume that it is a Vox/Solasound Tonebender Professional MkII (Marshall Supa Fuzz) circuit.

For more fact-based informations I would recommend to read this 16-pages thread:
http://dam.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=308

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Post by fuzzca »

Hey A.G.,
Thanks for debunking that "info" and thanks for the link. The DAM thread has a ton of pics! It could well be that "poorbob" in the DAM forum link you provided is non-other than the same Don Mare that provided the "secret" R.M pedal info in the tdpri thread I first read.
After reading both threads I guess Mare could just be a well meaning but misinformed fellow trying to help others but he also could be seen as being an aid to hyping a $3800 pedal.

My FZ-1 clone desires are waning....

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Post by wildschwein »

I don't know about the exact details but Mayer did build a fuzz for Pagey when he was in the Yardbirds. I don't know to what extent he used it though - he mentions it in this 1977 Guitar Player audio interview in the link below; and seems to speak highly of it. Have a listen if you're interested; the audio quality is poor but you can make out most of it. He talks a fair bit about gear and recording techniques on the earlier albums.
See:http://www.modernguitars.com/archives/003340.html

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Post by analogguru »

.....The Ventures. They had a Fuzztone. It was nothing like the one this guy, Roger Mayer, made for me;....
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Post by analogguru »

fuzzca wrote:It could well be that "poorbob" in the DAM forum link you provided is non-other than the same Don Mare that provided the "secret" R.M pedal info in the tdpri thread I first read.
It seems that you were right:
http://www.stompboxes.co.uk/forum/viewt ... ?f=6&t=373
Poorbob wrote:Ok. It's been awhile to say the least. And the glorious search for tone has died. The clone was close, but no cigar from what the guy tells me. He sold his fuzz and Supro amp to a collector for 10 G's, which I can't blame him for. He, however, took a ton of notes and has access to the fuzz whenever he wants. He wants Dave to build the posts that hold up the board or something like that so that he can continue to create a clone, but I said to just give him some pics to see if he can figure out the component names. I'm not real technical, but I was wondering if people could help out in figuring what the fuzz is most like. Here's what I gathered from our conversation:

It is most like the Gary Hurst Reissue fuzz in sound.
No wonder, because the Gary Hurst Reissue is nothing else than a Tonebender Professional MkII in a MkI-style case.
It is basically a modified Maestro Fuzztone/MKI.
bullshit.... but since there are also three transistors you can make everything out of a Fuzztone with enough moddding.
It is gated, I'm assuming like the Hurst fuzz.

It has these two caps, the key part of what makes it great according to this guy. They are both big, brown, bug-looking, caps that have no markings. They are an input cap with a value of .01....
Reminds me to the Marshall SupaFuzz.
that is supposed to produce some sort of treble boost and an output cap with a value of .2 that is supposed to give it the bass.

The trannies are Mullard OC81D's that need to be set up like this: 1st: 70-80 2nd: 90-100 3rd: 120
How did he measure them ?
The pots are different, like one or two megs (sp?)

As you can probably tell from now, I have absolutely no clue when it comes to components. Anyone know what this is sort of like? He'll be out of town for a week starting saturday, but it would cool to get some pics of this and reverse engineer it utilizing the board's knowledge. Some of you are probably sick of me talking about this, but it is a fuzz circuit created by Roger Mayer for Jimmy Page, so I believe that some respect is needed. I mean, this could be Mk1.25
No, maximum a slightly modded MkII (if RM even modded anything).... let´s wait for the guts....

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Post by Sickle »

analogguru, as far as I know, Poorbob is a fairly young man in his late teens/early 20's who has an obsession with Page's early Zep sounds, which I can't fault him with(cause they were good!). I haven't seen any kind of indication of him trying to set up a hustle at all; I'm moderator for the D*A*M forum and have had enough conversations with him I don't share your belief that he's this person being mentioned. If anything, he might be in contact with the person, but that's about it. Of course, its impossible to know who's who on the internet, but..

I've had a passive interest in this ongoing discussion since Poorbob started the thread you quoted him from. I ended up grabbing a Page-1 stomp off ebay this evening in the hopes of at least partially unfucking the mystery, but naturally that hinges on whether or not Mayer's Page-1 pedal is faithful to his original builds. All I know is there's two AC128 trannies in that one(Mullard compatible replacements for the OC81's, as I'm sure you already know), not three, so that knocks out the MK II/Supa Fuzz as the origin point of the Mayer pedals in question.

Or does it? I'm no expert on this stuff by any means, but its a pretty intriguing discussion to follow.

If anyone wants gut shots of it once it arrives, send me a PM here or on the D*A*M forum. I suspect it will take about a week and a half to get here from France.

Cheers,
D

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Post by Sickle »

Ok, did a little more hunting and found your Page-1 schematic. So if you leave all the new gunk off it looks like it was a 3 trannie circuit after all? The sales pitch is mainly about the AC128's is for Q2 & Q3, apparently.

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Post by analogguru »

Hi Sickle,
glad to see you over here even when I - as a passive visitor of the D*A*M-forum (hunting for guts) - am familiar with your name.

The "old" Roger Mayer schematic of the Page-1 contains a minor mistake which I will have to correct today.
Since the mistake is minor I didn´t correct it more early.
Please download the schematic again during the next couple of days.

An explanation of the Page-1 circuit can be found here.
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... mayer+page

As you can read in that thread I have my doubts that the story behind the Page-1 is more than "sales-talk", especially because RM has a lot of stories available which cannot be verified. A good example for this is the true story behind the "Octavio" which can be found here (including some links):
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=117

The Page-1 is indeed a FZ-1(A) derivate but the available information about the "mysterious" RM modded Page-fuzz let me tend to believe that this special unit in doupt will be more a (modded) TB Pro Mk-II or a Marshall SupaFuzz circuit. Let´s wait for the guts - if they should ever appear.

Concerning Poorbob I am sorry if I mixed him up with somebody else and I would have to apologize - but for me it is not very important if they are the same or indeed different people since I am only interested in the matter and not in people.

And the matter of his friend´s fuzz is very mysterious and obscure especially because RM for decades never built FZ-1(A) derivates which would have been a lot of money for him if that would be really the Fuzz responsible for the Page-sound. When you look at his Classic-Fuzz description he claims that this is the version he modded for Jimi-Hendrix. So why didn´t he come up before with a FZ-1(A) derivate he built for Page ? And his claim of 1964 is also a bit early for his first Fuzz, but I don´t know RM´s exact birthdate.

What makes me doubt mostly is the claim of a 1k-potentiometer which would be completely useless in a FZ-1(A) derivate as described above. Something is wrong with the story of the mysterious Fuzz under discussion.

Guts are always welcome.

I think the reason why RM uses AC128 now in his Page-1 is simply because they are better available.

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Post by analogguru »

After having an update-look at D*A*M I can say that even "The Captain" appears to share my doubts on that mysterious "Fuzz without guts".

Sorry again when Poorbob is indeed somebody else. But I never claimed that they are the same, as you can read above I wrote:
This guy seems to be one of the bullshit-spreaders.....
and:
It seems that you were right:
And I stand to it: The story behind this mysterious pedal IS bullshit with the information available until now. I want to see guts before I change my opinion.

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Post by MoreCowbell »

Hi Donovan - good to see you over here !

Anyway, interesting thread. I also have some doubts about it being a FZ-1. One of the things you find out after doing a bunch of research (and AG can certainly attest to this) is that people like Roger Mayer have made their living by having musicians believe that there is some "voodoo" behind the pedals they build. Because of that, it is rare that you get any kind of a straight answer from them. The more "shrouded in mystery" the actual circuit is, the better the potential sales are. For instance, in the Page-1 ad it clearly states that the "distortion section is the same as the original unit he made for Page".... well, the Page 1 runs at higher voltage than the Maestro, uses 1 silicon and 2 germanium transistors, has some substantial capacitor value differences, etc. The circuit is similar to the Maestro ...its also similar to the MKI Tonebender. The phrase "distortion section is the same as..." is simple sales talk.

Honestly, anything at this point is pure speculation. If we could see gut shots, tracing the circuit would be simple, and could fill in a missing piece of rock history.

Andy

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Post by MoreCowbell »

Interesting to note :

In his ad for the Concorde Treble Booster it states "When I first started designing pedals in 1961 I produced a Treble Booster that was tried and used by my friends including Jimmy Page who then played in local bands."

http://www.roger-mayer.co.uk/concorde.htm


However, when you read the "history" section on his site, it states "Roger Mayer first started making guitar effects in 1964 for his friend Jimmy Page."

http://www.roger-mayer.co.uk/history.htm




:hmmm:

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Post by analogguru »

1961 ?:
Very interesting Roger Mayer´s "time-machine", it appears that he even invented the Dallas Rangemaster.

Jimmy Page was born in 1944.
He started to play guitar with 12 - this was in 1956.
With 15 he played in bands like Neil Christian & the Crusaders - this was in 1959.
Very soon he was sick and couldn´t play live anymore.
In 1966 Page entered with the Yardbirds.

This means Page didn´t play in any "local band" from 1960 up to 1966.

Roger Mayer claims to have invented his Treble Booster in 1961 and Page "then" played in local bands - what is impossible.

Maybe Roger Mayer cloned the Dallas Rangemaster in 1966 and Page tried it at this time.

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Post by Sickle »

analogguru wrote:Hi Sickle,
glad to see you over here even when I - as a passive visitor of the D*A*M-forum (hunting for guts) - am familiar with your name.
I feel naked all of the sudden.

Image

Image
analogguru wrote:The "old" Roger Mayer schematic of the Page-1 contains a minor mistake which I will have to correct today.
Since the mistake is minor I didn´t correct it more early.
Please download the schematic again during the next couple of days.


Will do, thanks for that, friend!
analogguru wrote:An explanation of the Page-1 circuit can be found here.
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic ... mayer+page

As you can read in that thread I have my doubts that the story behind the Page-1 is more than "sales-talk", especially because RM has a lot of stories available which cannot be verified. A good example for this is the true story behind the "Octavio" which can be found here (including some links):
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=117
Sales talk with a wad of BS is to be expected from someone who's been around as long as RM, I'd imagine. And in a literal ocean of competition, I wouldn't be surprised if a little, uh..embellishment was utilized. Same as a guitar signal, pedal builders need something to slice through the mix and distinguish themselves. I'd prefer quality stomps over unverifiable bed time stories, but what the hell, the Quest for the Grail is more about the Quest itself than attaining the object.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

Image

I just find all of it a fun subject, BS and all. If course getting to the bottom of it would be great. This mythical beast could be a cool stomp none of us have had a chance to mess with, so I can see how a desire for that has provided the resistance to dismissing whatshisface..

What irks me about the Page-1 is this: Why the limited run? This is/would be a total cash cow on the level of Jimi cash for Mayer if he kept this as an open production run, so why was it dropped? Does it sound that bad? I hope not, I paid $200 for that POS!

Image
analogguru wrote:The Page-1 is indeed a FZ-1(A) derivate but the available information about the "mysterious" RM modded Page-fuzz let me tend to believe that this special unit in doupt will be more a (modded) TB Pro Mk-II or a Marshall SupaFuzz circuit. Let´s wait for the guts - if they should ever appear.
I agree, and I'm sure you saw my first post in that thread; gut shots front and back, holmes, or its just no workie!
analogguru wrote:Concerning Poorbob I am sorry if I mixed him up with somebody else and I would have to apologize - but for me it is not very important if they are the same or indeed different people since I am only interested in the matter and not in people.
Right on, and no worries. Poorbob's a decent guy. He's a member of not only the D*A*M board but also my own private and very useless forum as well, so I've spent a good amount of time in his company. I just don't want anyone getting the wrong impression here and perceive this as a building crescendo for a big pedal selling swindle and have that backlash reflect negatively on the D*A*M forum. I'm looking out for Mr Main directly on that one, as he's a good friend. I also seriously do not believe(as much as some one CAN online) that Poorbob would be involved in something shady like that.
analogguru wrote:What makes me doubt mostly is the claim of a 1k-potentiometer which would be completely useless in a FZ-1(A) derivate as described above. Something is wrong with the story of the mysterious Fuzz under discussion.
That is kinda weird, innit? A 1k pot would have like virtually no traversible range at all in that application, correct(I'm very slowly learning my electronics due to Fuzz Addiction).
analogguru wrote:Guts are always welcome.
Agreed again. I hope we see something at some point! Otherwise its just a dead monkey in a monkey suit!

Image
analogguru wrote:I think the reason why RM uses AC128 now in his Page-1 is simply because they are better available.
Aside from its compatibility to the OC80 range, I was thinking the same thing. What trannies were used in the FZ-1? Brad's got my FZ-1A, and I forget what was in it..

But thanks, analogguru, its nice to meet you as well! I'm a good friend of our common associate, Mr Soulkitchen, and I've gotten a laugh here and there watching you guys bust each others chops! Feel free to join in at any time over at the D*A*M forum; we'd love to have you there!

Cheers,
Donovan

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Post by MoreCowbell »

Sickle wrote:
analogguru wrote: Aside from its compatibility to the OC80 range, I was thinking the same thing. What trannies were used in the FZ-1? Brad's got my FZ-1A, and I forget what was in it..

The one I have sitting on my lap has RCA 2N2614's in it

They may also have 2N2613, or in the case of the straight "FZ-1", 2N270

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Post by ROTOPHUZZ »

An intersting note for this discussion:. if you browse through the yardbirds history book(the title escapes me but the book was released a few years back with some cool pics. there is a pic of jimmy page onstage circa 1966-67 with a clearly visible maestro fuzz tone on the floor and yes,he is playing the tele that he would later strip and paint phsycedelic. I remember reading many years ago an interview with Page and which he clearly states that he was using a "GIBSON OVERDRIVE MODIFIED BY SOME CHAP IN LONDON". as you all fuzz heads know,the Gibson overdrive is the Maestro FZ-1.
My personal take on this is: at some time in late 66 or early 67 mr Page decided to recase the reworked Maestro guts into a Sola Sound TB casing. Why? well,heavier case and easier plug ins on the output and input. (remember the silly input cord on the Maestro Fuzz that would only allow you to walk around 3 feet from it?. Having owned 2 original MKIIs, i dont care what anyone says but that is not the sound of late (Page) Yardbirds/early Zep folklore. The sound of Page`s tone bender is more raw,midrange heavy,fatter and LOUD!. in your face! also is heavily gated which is an inherited trait of the Maestro Fuzztone. my bet is on the modified Maestro FZ-1 theory. The Sola MKII/Supa Fuzz is a little too creamy sounding and much noisier at higher settings,specially dimed. also,remember that Pagey had quite an assortment of fuzzboxes over those years too. so anything is game and speculation at this point. But my old ears tell me: Modified Custom Fuzz.

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Post by uncleboko »

analogguru wrote:1961 ?:

This means Page didn´t play in any "local band" from 1960 up to 1966.


analogguru
Erm.....I saw Page in Neil Christian & the Crusaders in 1962 at the Assembly Hall in Barnet, England. He played a Gibson Black Beauty through a tiny Gibson amp which was pretty loud. I remember that he kept on practising Hall of the Mountain King.

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Post by RnFR »

i'm no zep master, but i thought this guy got an extremely convincing page tone out of a MKII. looks like the key is rolling back the guitars volume knob.
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Post by blanik »

RnFR wrote:i'm no zep master, but i thought this guy got an extremely convincing page tone out of a MKII. looks like the key is rolling back the guitars volume knob.
+1 !!!

i think most people overestimate the amount of modding and "tone searching" guys like Page or Hendrix would do, they're projecting their own search for tone on other people... :wink:

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Post by RnFR »

FOR THE RECORD: Rodger Mayer has actually said this is not his work - please let the records show this. sorry for any confusion - DM
who the hell knows what is really going on here.
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