The 'Sound' of Capacitors..

Frequently asked questions on capacitor types, ratings, brands, use and abuse.
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culturejam
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Post by culturejam »

Skreddy wrote:
culturejam wrote:... I keep failing to see a way to demonstrate some palpable difference between cap types.
Image

Yeah, I know how to use a breadboard, despite what you might think. What I can't figure out is how to switch 4 or 5 or 6 (or more) caps at one time. One I manually swap one cap in a circuit (especially a Muff), I can't hear a big difference. I can't even hear a medium difference with one swap.

So please, tell me, how do I swap them all at once on the breadboard? Surely, all the caps are important, or else you and many others wouldn't bother to use the caps you use. I just don't know how you can effectively, realistically test one dielectric type vs another using a breadboard. But man, I really do want to know how, because it sure would be a handy skill to have.

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Post by Duckman »

Maybe breadboarding two side by side, with all the caps changed and make and A/B test? :hmmm:
Differents components (the others, not the caps) only add the same difference you probably have in a batch, right?

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Post by culturejam »

Duckman wrote:Differents components (the others, not the caps) only add the same difference you probably have in a batch, right?
Different components add the same difference.

Man, I think that sums up the entire discussion very succinctly. :thumbsup

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Post by freq67 »

Well borrowing from the tube amp world, where I'm more knowledgeable than SS circuits,cap types tend to make more of a difference in lower gain amps. Your typical fender circuit benefits from carefully picking out cap type.However I think it tends to mush less of a difference in a super hotrodded circuit like the 5150 because of the mundo gain that's involved.past 12 O'clock on the gain knob in a circuit like that and everything is a square wave. Would this line of thinking carry over to pedals??

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Post by Seiche »

I think duckman is onto something though. We've established that simply building (or breadboarding) two versions of the same thing with different caps would certainly lead to different sounding circuits, which no one can really attribute to either part tolerances in the resistors, pots, or even tolerances in the values of the caps, let alone cap material.

the only solution to that problem would be to match values. That means you measure each part (resistors, pots, caps) so that they have identical values, as far as that's possible, to take that value-problem out of the equation. Surely resistors that are exactly the same value should sound the same, right? This would be a little extensive, though.

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Post by tschrama »

Just to put in my 2 cts..

I once was building a small low-distorion oscilator for measurement purpuses. Not matter what I did, I could get the THD below 0.1%.. untill I decided to swithc out some caps.. suddenly THD dropped through the floor... I changed some of the cheapy tiny blue shiny caps.. that's all..

There's no doubt that caps matter objectively...
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Post by deltafred »

I've given this quite a bit of thought and think that the only real way to compare one component against another is to have everything, and I mean everything, the same and just change that one component. The trouble with changing one component is that by the time you have swapped them over you have forgotten what the first one sounded like.

So recording the outcome is essential, as is using a recorded input so you know it is the same.

As an engineer I am firmly of the the belief that capacitor types don't make enough difference at audio frequencies to worry about, but I am always willing to admit I am wrong if proven so.

By proof I don't mean someone saying "I swapped the ceramic disc to an orange drop in my Strat and it now sounds (insert all the usual adjectives)", see below.

There was a thread on bass guitar tone control caps I read somewhere and this guy 'proved' that a certain cap was the best because he had 5 basses (different makes, body woods, pickup types, strings, string ages, etc) each with a different capacitor and the bass with this particular capacitor in sounded awesome. Case proven. Pah.
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Post by kleuck »

deltafred wrote:By proof I don't mean someone saying "I swapped the ceramic disc to an orange drop in my Strat and it now sounds (insert all the usual adjectives)", see below.
Just drop a PIO in your guitar, and you'll hear a difference (and i don't know why) replace the treble cap in an amp's tonestack, switch between ceramic and Silver Micas, you'll hear an obvious difference too.
Doesn't mean that there is always a hearable difference, nor that there is "better caps" for all situations (i build a commercial treble booster, new schematic on my own, and though i began with micas for the filter, my preferred one is after a lot of comparison the cheapest possible ceramic one ; i love PIO in guitars, but as the low filter cap in my amps, they are not that good)
Apart from that, i tested all kinds of caps in guitars, with no difference, and in pedals, most of the times, there is no huge difference either.

For the example of the BM : of course, the gain of the transistors is VERY important, as the bias point is largely determined by the very gain of the transistors with the bias system used in BM, here, maths doesn't prove there's no difference between transistors with different gain, just the opposite.
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Post by juanro »

Specifically for ceramic types, I always suspected that there's some kind of piezoelectric phenomenon involved, or other non-linearity. Hell, I remember once when a distortion kept sounding harsh and even feedbacking, I was poking around the circuit with a pen tip, and merely touching a cap produced a sound. It was acting like a damn good piezo microphone. Changed it for a cheap green film and it sound like it should (my father would say it still sounded like shit, though).

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Post by kleuck »

All caps can be microphonics, even fets can :) but indeed ceramic caps are not really linear, wich can be a bad or a good thing.
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Post by dread pierat »

Seiche wrote:I think duckman is onto something though. We've established that simply building (or breadboarding) two versions of the same thing with different caps would certainly lead to different sounding circuits, which no one can really attribute to either part tolerances in the resistors, pots, or even tolerances in the values of the caps, let alone cap material.

the only solution to that problem would be to match values. That means you measure each part (resistors, pots, caps) so that they have identical values, as far as that's possible, to take that value-problem out of the equation. Surely resistors that are exactly the same value should sound the same, right? This would be a little extensive, though.
But now you are constructing a different problem scenario, where you have two different breadboards. Why not do like Skreddy suggested and use only one? It should take about half as long to build the test rig. And if culturejam knows how to swap one capacitor I am sure he can deduct a way to swap 4, 5 or even 6 capacitors?

You are onto something though, when you mention pl. values. A capacitor and most other real-life components have several values, not only the capacitance that is labeled on the tin. True, you'd have to look them up in the datasheet to find some of them, and others you might have to measure yourself, but once you find two units where all the parameters match, they will be the same, and "sound" the same if you use them in an audio circuit.

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Post by Greenmachine »

Some of the things that "make a difference in tone":

set neck/bolt neck
boxed tele bridge/modern bridge
steel saddles/chrome saddles/brass saddles

These days, the way I process these polarizing arguments is this:

"perhaps there's a difference, but it's probably small considering some hear it and some don't"

:scratch: :hmmm: :idea:

Then I try to fight to urge to buy the part everyone's raving about; sometimes I win. :mrgreen:
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Post by dread pierat »

deltafred wrote:As an engineer I am firmly of the the belief that capacitor types don't make enough difference at audio frequencies to worry about, but I am always willing to admit I am wrong if proven so.
Did you bother reading http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf yet? As an engineer I think you'd find it interesting.

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Post by Seiche »

dread pierat wrote:But now you are constructing a different problem scenario, where you have two different breadboards.
are you saying, different breadboards sound differently? :whappen:
dread pierat wrote:Why not do like Skreddy suggested and use only one? It should take about half as long to build the test rig. And if culturejam knows how to swap one capacitor I am sure he can deduct a way to swap 4, 5 or even 6 capacitors?
that is because once you did that, do you really remember the sound? of course you could go with deltafred and record everything and use a recorded input, but that's gonna skew your perception too, because who knows how much of the change the recording will pick up? sometimes it's in the feel, too.
dread pierat wrote:You are onto something though, when you mention pl. values. A capacitor and most other real-life components have several values, not only the capacitance that is labeled on the tin. True, you'd have to look them up in the datasheet to find some of them, and others you might have to measure yourself, but once you find two units where all the parameters match, they will be the same, and "sound" the same if you use them in an audio circuit.
I agree, depends which values (i honestly don't know what else there is) are inherited in the material itself and which ones are just independent of materials. Though that would have to get measured no matter if you used only one breadboard, swapping parts, or two circuits with all other variables equal.

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Post by GuitarlCarl »

There are so many variables, sometimes its hard to know if its the cap or the weak ground or ( insert odd component here ) that changes the sound. Unless you are willing to build and rebuild everything you do, its best to go with the standard used in whatever you are building. Note the breadboard vs the final almost always should different too, with different shielding and less loose wires... I say build with what you got and use your own ears. I do like pio in my guitars too... :blackeye
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Post by MoonWatcher »

GuitarlCarl wrote:There are so many variables
This is all that needs to be said.

And even if you get a different sound with a different component, you will get more variations depending on guitars, amps, cords, the room, the volume, whether it is live or in isolation, and a potentially limitless number of variables.

I doesn't mean that double blinds shouldn't be carried out, but even if they are, some folks still won't believe. In the case of caps, I submit that it is diminishing returns. If there TRULY was one dialectric that rivaled all others, it would be the standard for an application, just like there are standards (for the most part) with biasing op amps, standards for filter caps/chokes/rectifiers for tube/valve amps depending if you want a "vintage" or "modern" feel, and so on.

...And many/most of us default to those standards, because they have been shown to sound consistently good. But with caps, it isn't the case, otherwise you wouldn't have so many opinions/perceptions that have no consensus.

I know we were kicking around the notion of building something that would provide a true double blind ( a year ago or so), but at this point I've personally moved on. Even if caps have a difference in sound in a 9VDC to 18VDC effect pedal (amps/guitars/hi-fi gear etc. should not be thrown into this discussion as they are apples to oranges), it isn't enough to get us all on the same bandwagon with the "best type."

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Post by Seiche »

maybe there isn't one type of ultimate cap for all. but you know, ceramics sound best in muff circuit at that position and film caps at the other, but when you have an opamp overdrive you should use polyfilm here and tantalum there. I dunno, like different applications call for different caps, or something. similar to how everyone is using carbon comp resistors and carbon batteries in fuzz faces or generally "vintage" circuits.

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Post by kleuck »

MoonWatcher wrote:
GuitarlCarl wrote:There are so many variables
This is all that needs to be said.

And even if you get a different sound with a different component, you will get more variations depending on guitars, amps, cords, the room, the volume, whether it is live or in isolation, and a potentially limitless number of variables.

I doesn't mean that double blinds shouldn't be carried out, but even if they are, some folks still won't believe. In the case of caps, I submit that it is diminishing returns. If there TRULY was one dialectric that rivaled all others, it would be the standard for an application, just like there are standards (for the most part) with biasing op amps, standards for filter caps/chokes/rectifiers for tube/valve amps depending if you want a "vintage" or "modern" feel, and so on.

...And many/most of us default to those standards, because they have been shown to sound consistently good. But with caps, it isn't the case, otherwise you wouldn't have so many opinions/perceptions that have no consensus.
Not true, different times, different technologies.
All the stuff built nowadays is built with CMS caps, which implies ceramic ones, only because they are cheap, reliable, space saving, not because they are a standard of quality :mrgreen: .
You can't use Silver mica everywhere, just because they would be huge in high values, (and indeed it's probably impossible to make a 1µf SM) polystyrene caps are awesome when it comes to general audio/mids filtering, but they are fragile, do not exist in very low cap, nor in high ones, and can't stand high voltages or temperature ; otherwise THEY would have become the standard for audio use.
Northing's perfect, and you always have to compose with what exists/what you can afford/ what fits in your pedal etc.

But when you have the choice, sometimes a given technology is "better"
juanro wrote:Specifically for ceramic types, I always suspected that there's some kind of piezoelectric phenomenon involved, or other non-linearity. Hell, I remember once when a distortion kept sounding harsh and even feedbacking, I was poking around the circuit with a pen tip, and merely touching a cap produced a sound. It was acting like a damn good piezo microphone. Changed it for a cheap green film and it sound like it should (my father would say it still sounded like shit, though).

Juanro
Actually, a piezo PU or buzzer is mainly a cap.
Last edited by kleuck on 08 Dec 2011, 16:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by culturejam »

tschrama wrote:I once was building a small low-distorion oscilator for measurement purpuses. Not matter what I did, I could get the THD below 0.1%.. untill I decided to swithc out some caps.. suddenly THD dropped through the floor... I changed some of the cheapy tiny blue shiny caps.. that's all..

There's no doubt that caps matter objectively...
So how does this manifest in the sound? Especially in a fuzz or other dirt pedal.

I can believe that different caps might sound different. But nobody is willing, so far, to say how it changes the sound. Is there a change in boost/cut at a certain frequency? Is there less background hiss?

I want somebody to tell me HOW it sounds different. You've already got me believe that it can sound different. I just want someone to state what that difference is.

Oh, and give an example that I can repeat myself. I have lots of caps and a couple breadboards that have nothing on them (at the moment). I'm ready to have my mind blown (or even be slightly impressed) by swapping cap types. Please help me to see the light.

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Post by mictester »

culturejam wrote:
Skreddy wrote:You can look at an oscillator sweep of ceramic caps and see the difference from poly film quite plainly--it doesn't even take ears.
This is exactly what I've been asking for in the past. But the answer is always, "You can't measure it with test equipment, but trust me, it's different."

So to hear you say that it's easy to prove is awesome. Can't wait to see the graphs and charts (from whoever would like to set up the tests).

Like Fox Mulder on X-Files, "I want to believe". :thumbsup

Been there, done that.

I'll say it again, for the hard of thinking:

Two capacitors of the SAME value of whatever dielectric will give IDENTICAL results at audio frequencies.

Anybody who tells you any different is either deluded or a liar.

There are only three reasons to select particular TYPES of capacitor in low voltage audio circuits:

1. Size - will it fit the board?

2. Look - should I use a uniform type of capacitor to make the board look neater?

3, Marketing bullshit or dumb ignorance - the most common reasons (especially amongst boutique boobs) - they've been told that X sounds better than Y- the difference can't be measured, but they believe it's so because ABC (insert name of current "flavour of the week") says so.

Get capacitors of differing construction but the SAME MEASURED VALUES and there will be NO audible difference no matter what the industry pundits tell you. They are simply wrong, and are just trying to sell their particular dreams!

PS: Why did the first run of Tubescreamers have JRC 4558s in them? Not for any sonic reason - it was just because it was the cheapest dual op-amp available that week!
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