The 'Sound' of Capacitors..

[phibes]

How can a question be wrong?

[Skreddy]

You can certainly hear the difference between one single cap change on a breadboard with a BMP circuit. Use a .1uf cerm and swap a .1 poly in any of the signal-coupling positions---any one. Have a friend play the guitar while you swap caps, so there's instant results in real time. Play with the dc-blocking cap in the diode clipping stages too.

Everything matters; of course everything matters. If different things were actually the same, THAT would be magic.

Teachers and engineers will be (generally) the first to acknowledge the differences between admittedly over-simplified, ideal components vs real-world applications. Component selection is not a trivial thing and is more important even than physical layout in most cases.

The only possible utility of dogmatic absolutism is to protect one's ignorance. There is no controversy here, only argument.

[juanro]

How can a question be wrong?

When it contains assumptions, like the classic "Did you stopped beating your kids, or not?"

Juanro

[Seiche]

Component selection is not a trivial thing and is more important even than physical layout in most cases.

wait, what?
surely not in most cases?

[Skreddy]

Component selection is not a trivial thing and is more important even than physical layout in most cases.

wait, what?
surely not in most cases?

When you're trying to eliminate oscillation at a power rail, they always say put the cap as close to the component as possible, yeah? That's important. But choosing an inappropriate component type can be just as detrimental to a circuit as bad layout practices (and is a much more common problem than layout issues).

[kleuck]

If so many do hear sonic differences there must be some thruth

Many people think colds are caused by exposure to low temperature, drafts and such. Not to mention how many pray to imaginary friends. See argumentum ad populum.

when you turn down your tone control, you obviously lower the highs, but, you retain a little brightness

What is "brightness"? What is "dull"? 'Cause I can tell you what a RLC filter is. What non-ideal parameters of the R, L or C aspects may lead to unexpected* behaviour?

____________________________
* = meaning other than what the basic math or a simple sim might tell us.

just give it a TRY !
I'm building a new guitar, just to give a positive response i will temporarily use my push-pull (intended for another thing involving cap) to switch between two technologies, not sure the differences will be obvious on YT, but all these argues are really making me sick, as it's so simple and cost-effective to just TRY things in real life, arguing is just sterile, EARS are the judges.
Strangely enough , most people who compared preferred PIO, when people thinking there's no difference with ceramic caps did not try a single cap sub.
And, trust me, i know what an RLC filter is too, i use some in my builds.

[culturejam]

The question is how your cap sounds and is sonically different from another type in a given application.

Of course. And the application here is in a fuzz or some other dirt circuit. I thought that was obvious.

So again, we arrive at the same old juncture: Different cap types make a difference in sound. Somehow. In some applications. But the sound difference is difficult/impossible to measure. But easy to hear; but difficult/impossible to describe in words in any meaningful way. But definitely different.

I'm not even sure why I bothered posting in this thread. Always ends the same.

Imma go try some listening tests right now.

[Duckman]

Well, as I read this thread, I realize my argument is as valid as anyone.

Culturejam, I propose the following: mount two separate BM in two different breadboards with the same components and do an A/B test. If you hear any difference, the test is useless and all your pedals will sound different always. If you do not hear any difference, change the capacitors in one of the BM and redo the test.
Warm? Harshy? Muddy? I don't know, but if there will be any difference, surely you'll hear it and can tell us, for the sake of this thread

[diagrammatiks]

The question is how your cap sounds and is sonically different from another type in a given application.

Of course. And the application here is in a fuzz or some other dirt circuit. I thought that was obvious.

So again, we arrive at the same old juncture: Different cap types make a difference in sound. Somehow. In some applications. But the sound difference is difficult/impossible to measure. But easy to hear; but difficult/impossible to describe in words in any meaningful way. But definitely different.

I'm not even sure why I bothered posting in this thread. Always ends the same.

Imma go try some listening tests right now.

the difference is easy to measure but hard to hear unless you know exactly what to listen for.

again...these types of proof tests always beg the question...what is your criterion for difference?

does it have to be 100 percent different 100 percent of the time?

completely different measurably for all sine wave tests?

[Seiche]

^this, but match the values.

[Seiche]

it's so simple and cost-effective to just TRY things in real life, arguing is just sterile, EARS are the judges.

you're right. sadly i play semi acoustics (335 style) and nothing's easy about changing the electronics through f-holes.

[culturejam]

the difference is easy to measure but hard to hear unless you know exactly what to listen for.

I thought it was the other way around. I thought it was really easy to swap one cap and hear a difference.

What is it, exactly, that I should be listening for?

what is your criterion for difference?

It has to sound different in human hearing range of frequencies. Shit, i'll even accept evidence that shows measurable difference within human hearing frequencies that are so small they can't even be perceived by average people (or dogs). At this point, I'll take any kind of evidence...other than "trust me, it's different".

[Scruffie]

At this point, I'll take any kind of evidence...other than "trust me, it's different".

You didn't ACTUALLY think you'd get an answer did you!?

I think soon hearing difference in caps is going to have to have to be unspoken on forums much like political and religious views... it's just simpler that way.

Cap tone political correctness!

[dread pierat]

So again, we arrive at the same old juncture: Different cap types make a difference in sound. Somehow. In some applications. But the sound difference is difficult/impossible to measure. But easy to hear; but difficult/impossible to describe in words in any meaningful way. But definitely different.

Are you for real? The very first sentence in the post which you split out from the CDIII thread is as follows:

You can look at an oscillator sweep of ceramic caps and see the difference from poly film quite plainly--it doesn't even take ears.

It is easy to measure. Use a scope and an oscillator.

I'm not even sure why I bothered posting in this thread. Always ends the same.

Why then did you bother splitting the posts away from the original thread, creating this one?

For the third time so far in this thread I'll link a pdf containing technical info, with references and all. Not sure why I bother, because clearly people aren't reading it

http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Picking_Capacitors_1.pdf[/url]

[Hides-His-Eyes]

If so many do hear sonic differences there must be some thruth

Many people think colds are caused by exposure to low temperature, drafts and such. Not to mention how many pray to imaginary friends. See argumentum ad populum.

when you turn down your tone control, you obviously lower the highs, but, you retain a little brightness

What is "brightness"? What is "dull"? 'Cause I can tell you what a RLC filter is. What non-ideal parameters of the R, L or C aspects may lead to unexpected* behaviour?

____________________________
* = meaning other than what the basic math or a simple sim might tell us.

just give it a TRY !
I'm building a new guitar, just to give a positive response i will temporarily use my push-pull (intended for another thing involving cap) to switch between two technologies, not sure the differences will be obvious on YT, but all these argues are really making me sick, as it's so simple and cost-effective to just TRY things in real life, arguing is just sterile, EARS are the judges.
Strangely enough , most people who compared preferred PIO, when people thinking there's no difference with ceramic caps did not try a single cap sub.
And, trust me, i know what an RLC filter is too, i use some in my builds.

So don't put it on youtube. Upload the wav.

If it's too subtle to be recorded by a 48kHz digital signal I don't care, since my guitar goes through one of those anyway before it gets to my amp.

Do remember to test them both with a capacitance meter, please...

[Hides-His-Eyes]

the difference is easy to measure but hard to hear unless you know exactly what to listen for.

this is practically an assertion that the effect is psychoacoustic.

[diagrammatiks]

the difference is easy to measure but hard to hear unless you know exactly what to listen for.

I thought it was the other way around. I thought it was really easy to swap one cap and hear a difference.

What is it, exactly, that I should be listening for?

what is your criterion for difference?

It has to sound different in human hearing range of frequencies. Shit, i'll even accept evidence that shows measurable difference within human hearing frequencies that are so small they can't even be perceived by average people (or dogs). At this point, I'll take any kind of evidence...other than "trust me, it's different".

that doesn't really answer the question.

a single frequency generated wave is just a single simple tone. You can run that tone through a number of different circuits and conclude that those circuits do indeed reproduce that tone perfectly.

however, a "listening" test demands a dynamic set of inputs and it is no longer a matter of stating whether or not it sounds different to the human ear.

just for a hypothetical situation consider 2 ideal circuits that are identical except circuit A is able to reproduce the entire spectrum of hearing perfectly and circuit B does the same except that it is completely incapable of reproducing a single non-fundamental frequency that lies right at the edge of hearing or suppose it only manifests within a complex compound wave consisting of substantial 2nd and 3rd order harmonics.

what sort of listening test could prove those facts about those two circuits.

the difference is easy to measure but hard to hear unless you know exactly what to listen for.

this is practically an assertion that the effect is psychoacoustic.

really? I guarantee you that there are types of digital hash noise and high frequency oscillation noises that sound like static and white noise to the majority of people but can be easily differentiated and identities by audio technicians.

[kleuck]

it's so simple and cost-effective to just TRY things in real life, arguing is just sterile, EARS are the judges.

you're right. sadly i play semi acoustics (335 style) and nothing's easy about changing the electronics through f-holes.

Ouch, not easy indeed, i would not modify such a guitar just for a test.

[kleuck]

So don't put it on youtube. Upload the wav.

If it's too subtle to be recorded by a 48kHz digital signal I don't care, since my guitar goes through one of those anyway before it gets to my amp.

Do remember to test them both with a capacitance meter, please...

I always do, and bought a cap tester for this purpose mainly -well not mainly, but it was an important criteria- as 10% variation can lead to really noticeable differences with passive pickups.
BTW, i must say that the russian PIOs i have are all really precise, about 2 or 3%.
I have good results with vids on YT now, thanks to my wife's apn, when listened in HD.

[culturejam]

Are you for real?

Yep, I am for realz. I do believe that there must be some difference in cap types. I just have not been able to hear it yet.

I'm actually mostly interested, at this point, in figure out how nature of the sound is changed. You guys have converted me to believing there is a difference. And now I want to know what ceramic does to fuzz tones that is so different from metallized film.

I have a scope. So can you suggest a test method for me to use to plot the differences?

Why then did you bother splitting the posts away from the original thread, creating this one?

Because it would've inevitably derailed the thread, which was not about caps at all, but rather about a pedal. It was merely a housekeeping task.


I READ YOUR PDF SEVERAL MONTHS AGO WHEN IT WAS FIRST POSTED

As I recall, it basically says that tantalums have a shitload more THD than other caps. And that voltage rating plays some kind of role in determining how great a change in capacitance is exhibited at a certain frequency vs some other frequency. And that if capacitance changes a lot with respect to frequency, it might also effect phase. And that different dielectrics display differing impedances (and voltage rating also has some bearing on impedance).

Yeah, I read it. But I'm obviously not smart enough to apply what's in there to give me an idea of what changing caps in a fuzz face is going to do to the sound.