The 'Sound' of Capacitors..

Frequently asked questions on capacitor types, ratings, brands, use and abuse.
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kleuck
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Post by kleuck »

I think it's a good thing in one of my guitars, as it loses highs really fast with long cables etc.
But in all axes i put PIO, the main interest is : maintains some "life" in your sound, even when the tone pot is very low, most guitarist who tested PIO reports this simple thing, "Tone pot is at after all useful" (and it's my opinion too)
A strange thing i (and others, a customer was reporting that to me on the phone yesterday haha ) can hear only with these : when using your finger to cover the whole tone pot's range, you got a sorta "Wah-Wha sound", no other cap does that.
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Post by kleuck »

And they are not necessarily expensive nor bulky : http://tubes-store.com/product_info.php ... cts_id=184
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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culturejam
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Post by culturejam »

Hides-His-Eyes wrote:CJ, the cap is only seperated from the circuit by the resistance of the pot, which for a gibson could be as little as 250k.
250K is a fair bit of resistance. And I think at 500K, the cap is effectively out of the circuit.

I discovered this while fixing up an old guitar for a friend. I kept trying different value caps in the tone control but could not hear a difference. Then I realized the tone was all the way up. When I turned it down about 25% and more, I could start hearing differences in the values and how they affected the taper/sweep.

Or maybe I just don't hear so good? :scratch:

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Post by kleuck »

culturejam wrote:
Hides-His-Eyes wrote:CJ, the cap is only seperated from the circuit by the resistance of the pot, which for a gibson could be as little as 250k.
250K is a fair bit of resistance. And I think at 500K, the cap is effectively out of the circuit.
I used to think the same, then, i made comparison.
Just remove the cap with a switch, you'll know that it's not at all out of the circuit.

That's the exact point where theory and "abstraction" becomes crap, i've been thinking for years that the cap was actually out of circuit, and a in a minute i learned that NOT at all.
With a test, an actual axe, an actual amp, and actual ears.
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by kleuck »

To be fair and precise : there's a true difference whith P90 and Tele pus, i don't know with Humbuckers.
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by JakeAC5253 »

kleuck wrote:
culturejam wrote:
Hides-His-Eyes wrote:CJ, the cap is only seperated from the circuit by the resistance of the pot, which for a gibson could be as little as 250k.
250K is a fair bit of resistance. And I think at 500K, the cap is effectively out of the circuit.
I used to think the same, then, i made comparison.
Just remove the cap with a switch, you'll know that it's not at all out of the circuit.

That's the exact point where theory and "abstraction" becomes crap, i've been thinking for years that the cap was actually out of circuit, and a in a minute i learned that NOT at all.
With a test, an actual axe, an actual amp, and actual ears.
I did the same, but don't even bother with a switch. Solder in wires with alligator clips on the end and clip some different caps there to see what sounds like what. If you ask me, the differences from cap to cap make the biggest differences when the pot is full up. Once you start dialing down the highs, they all sound the same to me.

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Post by kleuck »

Did you try PIOs ?
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A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by JakeAC5253 »

I did not, mostly just the common types with a few other not so common types thrown in.

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Post by kleuck »

Well, try one if you can is my best advice.
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by FiveseveN »

That's the exact point where theory and "abstraction" becomes crap
Nonsense. Here's a simulation showing the effect of various series resistance with the cap: 250 K, 500 K, 1 M, 1 G (basically open circuit).
capr.png
Also attached the LTspice schematic.
capr.zip
(531 Bytes) Downloaded 75 times
So yes, the difference can be significant. The abstraction tells you so. It's a friggin' LCR circuit, not the International Space Station!
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. (Charles Darwin)

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Post by kleuck »

We are not talking different series resistance, but only different caps :scratch:
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A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by FiveseveN »

Dude, seriously, do you even know how the Tone control on a guitar works?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. (Charles Darwin)

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Post by kleuck »

I don't know how to read a *.asc file, but i can figure out roughly how a tone control is working yes, and we are not talking about different resistors or different capacitance, but only different caps of the same capacitance.
Give it a try, i assure you, you can make great experiences with your ears :)
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by FiveseveN »

Remember your previous post? THAT's what I was talking about. It's simulating different values of the tone pot at maximum resistance, including a "1 GOhm" pot which represents an open circuit.
So I was supporting your position, that switching the cap out entirely is not the same thing as maxing the pot. Though the actual difference in sound is another story.
What I object to is the idea that the phenomenology is so complex that the "theory" can't precisely describe it. If mankind can build the LHC I think we can manage a silly passive resonant lowpass.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. (Charles Darwin)

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Post by Seiche »

to be fair, in that post the "theory" is him thinking it has to be a way when that wasn't true. Nothing to do with electronics theory, only lack of knowledge (I'm not saying i know any of this btw)

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Post by kleuck »

@FiveseveNHo sorry, i can't always understand English, specially when it's subtle, i did not understand you were talking about the in/out of circuit, must be tired or blind.....
I'm sure we should be able to explain all differences, but it's like an investigation or a medical diagnostic : you can find only what you're seeking.
Or : if we have an abstract model lacking some parameters, using it to prove or disprove something due to one or some of this parameters is pointless.
We make music for ours ears , so let's use our ears.
In other words, I'm not sure someone has ever studied all dielectrics from A to Z, and as industry is now focused on small digital circuits using only cms -therefore ceramic caps- i doubt it will someday be the case.
If you want to say that my axe is specially able to show subtle differences between caps, yes, for sure, i have an amp with very high input impedance too, same thing.
Randall Aïken said :
Q: Is there any advantage to using solder with a 2% silver content?
A: Yes. Silver solder keeps werewolves away from your amp.

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Post by andregarcia57 »

multi-layer capacitors sound better than the ceramic on pedals?
thanks

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Post by blackbunny »

andregarcia57 wrote:multi-layer capacitors sound better than the ceramic on pedals?
thanks
I think they sound better, but I guess you should compare them and decide for yourself. That may explain why this topic is now 27 pages long! :secret:

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Post by JakeAC5253 »

blackbunny wrote:
andregarcia57 wrote:multi-layer capacitors sound better than the ceramic on pedals?
thanks
I think they sound better, but I guess you should compare them and decide for yourself. That may explain why this topic is now 27 pages long! :secret:
Multilayer ceramic caps have more audio range distortion than other types of modern cap, but it is my understanding that this distortion is somewhat random, so you could build three pedals with identical parts using all multilayer ceramics as coupling caps and all three may sound a little different. I would be very happy to learn that this were not the case, because I have used multilayer ceramics in pedal designs before where I did not have a film cap large enough, and the results came out great.

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Post by mowgli »

well I went and listened to that utube guy demostrating a few different caps -
having read this whole thread over the last couple of days - which at times
had me howling with laughter - made a brilliant read - blood n guts all over
the place - anyway I knew I wouldnt hear a difference between these caps
BUT------ I did !! now that really was a surprise I can tell you -
when the tone control was full up mind you - when the tone was rolled
off they all sounded the same - the most annoying thing is that its that
big bloody paper n oil thing that really sounded different - I really dont
do booteek - intrigued I looked at the guys other tests with a bit of distortion
Well you can pick it out instantly even easier than clean - damn my ears - I ve
become an audio phool - I seriously dont believe I ve talked myself into this
I really wasnt expecting to hear a difference

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