Vertex NOS Axis Wah - De-gooped  [traced]

General documentation, gut shot, schematic links, ongoing circuit tracing, deep thoughts ... all about boutique stompboxes.
User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

Well, as some of you may know, on The "Lawyer" forum (TGP) there was a big stink about Vertex Effects Wah pedals (Among other things).
Vertex has (had?) 2 Axis Wahs, the normal one and the "NOS" one.
One of the users offered to loan his NOS to someone if they were willing to de-goop it and find out what it really was,
As luck would have it, that user lived near me so I offered my services to de-goop and trace it.
And in another stroke of luck, he also had a BBE Ben Wah so I could do a comparison between the Vertex NOS Axis Wah and its "Supposed" cousin the BBE Ben Wah.
It took me a little longer than it should have since my heat gun died about a week or so before the Vertex meltdown.
But still, I didn't break any parts during the de-gooping process.
Although one of the transistors did break shortly after :(

So lets get one with it and show you some pictures...
Image
See that little "NOS" on the box on the right?
That's the ONLY thing that indicates that that is the NOS version. Wonderful.


So what does this NOS gem look like on the inside?
(I had already started peeling the goop off when I took this pic).
Image
That PCB looks a little funny doesn't it?
We are only just getting started here.

No need to show a bunch of de-gooping progress pics so here it is free of goop:
(Yeah I know, looks like I brutalized it a bit. My heat gun died about a week before I tackled this project)
Image
Don't you just love that customized PCB trimming?

Now how about this little pic of the PCB from the BBE Ben Wah with the Vertex modified PCB overlaid on top:
Image

Anyone notice anything missing?
Being that this PCB is from the Vertex NOS Axis Wah.
How about some NOS parts?

Heres the schem.
And much thanks to Matt for cleaning up my original schematic.
Although lug 1 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex
Image

(Now how many minutes before Ivlark does a vero layout of this? :) )

A few notes:
C1, C2: Greenies
C3, C4, C7, C9: Box
C5: Ceramic Disc

Wah Pots:
BBE: HOSS PT25 SB104

Vertex: 295S1314
Smallbear Elec: SKU 2601B (The Black Bear, 100K)
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=582

The ONLY difference between the BBE and the Vertex NOS versions:
1. The Wah Pots
2. The BBE model I had, has carbon film resistors. I contacted Paul Gagon (The VP of Technology at BBE) and he told me that BBE went to metal film resistors near the end of 2009. Serial number on the BBE is : 200909087 which by my guess means it was made in September of 2009.
Paul confirmed this and added that it was the 87th Wah made in September 2009.
He was also very nice and thanked me for my "detective" work on this.
He seemed like the kind of guy I would enjoy having a beer with at the local pub/bar.

And here we have an overlay showing the taper of each pot:
Image

The pot in the Vertex one topped out at 87.9K, the BBE at 100.2K
( The values for Column 21 are fake, done so that the sizes of each graphic matched up properly)

And the Open Office and MS Excel formatted versions of the pot tapers.
Attachments
BBE_And_Vertex_Sweep_Pots_002.xls
Microsoft Excel 97/2000/XP format
(11 KiB) Downloaded 39 times
BBE_And_Vertex_Sweep_Pots_002.ods
Open Office Calc Format
(32.63 KiB) Downloaded 21 times

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?

mmolteratx
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 510
Joined: 19 Dec 2009, 02:50
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 587 times

Post by mmolteratx »

CodeMonk wrote:Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
Swapping lugs 1 and 3 will reverse the direction. Same taper though since it's linear, just something to note. Connecting 2/3 is better practice than leaving 3 floating, though it really doesn't matter.

EDIT: Also of note, modding a CryBaby to "Vertex" specs is trivial. Really the only thing required is the Q pot addition and swapping the pot/inductor, since presumably the Vertex uses the 600mH Eleca instead of a 500mH inductor, and the ICAR taper is a bit different than the Hot Potz one. Attached is the CryBaby values on the same schematic for comparison.
Attachments
CryBaby.png

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

mmolteratx wrote:
CodeMonk wrote:Correction :
Lug 3 not Lug 1 on the Body/Q Pot:
"Although LUG 3 on the "Body" or "Q" pot is not connected to anything in either the BBE or the Vertex".
Not that it really matters from a functional standpoint which 2 lugs you use on that pot, 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.
Can a mod maybe correct that?
Swapping lugs 1 and 3 will reverse the direction. Same taper though since it's linear, just something to note. Connecting 2/3 is better practice than leaving 3 floating, though it really doesn't matter.

EDIT: Also of note, modding a CryBaby to "Vertex" specs is trivial. Really the only thing required is the Q pot addition and swapping the pot/inductor, since presumably the Vertex uses the 600mH Eleca instead of a 500mH inductor, and the ICAR taper is a bit different than the Hot Potz one.
That's kinda what I meant.
I just wanted to correct that it is lug 3 that is unconnected.
Functionally its the same, just in reverse.
And yeah, I always connect 2 and 3 if 3 isn't grounded just for the redundancy thingy.
This one isn't connected though. I should have asked Paul why he left it that way.
Wish my meter did Inductance. Not that I would use it a whole lot.

alexradium
Resistor Ronker
Posts: 300
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 14:31
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Post by alexradium »

i just got the other day a 2008 Ben wah,it has carbon film resistors and yellow caps,i think brand Kemet or something.
the pot is a black one sealed type similar to Hotpotz.
Not a super sound,i changed the pot to an ICAR black bear and voilà,it came to life on par of my Tonepad crybaby with red fasel.
So,i guess that differences in sound as demonstrated on some YT videos could be related to variance in pot taper and/or gear position.
Interesting to note that those 220n greenies are also in the Fulltone's,i think i could give a try,what do you think?

User avatar
JOHNO
Cap Cooler
Posts: 599
Joined: 21 Jun 2009, 08:13
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Post by JOHNO »

Maybe "NOS" means it's just a NOS wah from BBE's warehouse. It's great fuckin scam this one.

IvIark
Tube Twister
Posts: 2297
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 00:59
Location: Manchester UK
Has thanked: 507 times
Been thanked: 540 times
Contact:

Post by IvIark »

I've been looking forward to this schematic, great job on it from the start CodeMonk. And thank you for giving me a really good chuckle when you listed your degooping qualification CV on TGP! :ROFL
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP

IvIark
Tube Twister
Posts: 2297
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 00:59
Location: Manchester UK
Has thanked: 507 times
Been thanked: 540 times
Contact:

Post by IvIark »

What are the dimensions of the inductor and what is the pin spacings? I can't seem to find the details on them
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

IvIark wrote:What are the dimensions of the inductor and what is the pin spacings? I can't seem to find the details on them
All measurements taken on pin centers
Pin to pin : 3.75mm
Diameter : 10.5 mm
That ok, or you need other measurements?

I think my CV surprised that sloppyseconds guy.
He probably didn't believe it, but I don't give a rat's ass if he did or not.
All of it was true BTW.


Edit:
Oops, forgot a few measurements :)
Body measurements:
Height : 16mm
Body diameter: 18mm
Base : 18mm x 18mm
with a +/- of about 0.2mm

IvIark
Tube Twister
Posts: 2297
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 00:59
Location: Manchester UK
Has thanked: 507 times
Been thanked: 540 times
Contact:

Post by IvIark »

That's great thanks for the dimensions.
The main thing I want from all the whole Vertex debacle is to find out what projects you worked on that you wouldn't tell us about :mrgreen:
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

IvIark wrote:That's great thanks for the dimensions.
The main thing I want from all the whole Vertex debacle is to find out what projects you worked on that you wouldn't tell us about :mrgreen:
As far as I know, none of that stuff has ever been publicly acknowledged.
I think I'll let someone else do that.

IvIark
Tube Twister
Posts: 2297
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 00:59
Location: Manchester UK
Has thanked: 507 times
Been thanked: 540 times
Contact:

Post by IvIark »

I think this covers it, although with a 3.75mm pitch the inductor may need fettling in a bit to build it on vero
[removed until I rearrange inductor]
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP

Dave_Mc
Posts: 9
Joined: 25 Jun 2011, 21:54
Has thanked: 3 times

Post by Dave_Mc »

Excellent work Rob :applause:

User avatar
Effectsiation
Posts: 43
Joined: 09 May 2008, 19:18
Has thanked: 6 times

Post by Effectsiation »

Can you do a shot of the underside of the PCB? The Eleca uses a bunch of pins compared to other inductors, so its pretty easy to spot.

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:

Image

This is the PCB from the BBE wah (The one labeled BBE).
That resistor is R1 on the schematic. If you look really close, you can see a cut trace under the resistor in between the red and gold bands.
This is an earlier version of the BBE Wah and R1 is an RF filter according to Paul Gagon.
It was later incorporated into the PCB design and became R17 (You can see it just under the input jack in the overlay image) around the end of 2009 when they also went to metal film resistors.


Edit:
@Effectsiation...
I had the editor open and was making the post when you made yours.
I didn't even see your post until after I made mine.
Great minds and all that :)
And obviously the square pads are the only ones that connect electrically to the inductor.

IvIark
Tube Twister
Posts: 2297
Joined: 02 Jan 2008, 00:59
Location: Manchester UK
Has thanked: 507 times
Been thanked: 540 times
Contact:

Post by IvIark »

CodeMonk wrote:For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:
Aah right, I didn't realise they were like that. So the pins used seem to be the full 18mm apart and slightly off centre? Hmmm vero probably isn't ideally suited to this one, maybe the vero version would work better with a different inductor.
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

IvIark wrote:
CodeMonk wrote:For IvIark, here is the bottom side of the PCB where you can see the inductor pins:
Aah right, I didn't realise they were like that. So the pins used seem to be the full 18mm apart and slightly off centre? Hmmm vero probably isn't ideally suited to this one, maybe the vero version would work better with a different inductor.
The inductor sits on top of a square piece of plastic (or maybe teflon).
That square piece is 18mm x 18mm.
The diameter of the circle made by the placement of the pins is 10.5mm

User avatar
atreidesheir
Diode Debunker
Posts: 747
Joined: 27 Apr 2010, 01:56
my favorite amplifier: thd univalve
Location: Nashville
Has thanked: 373 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Post by atreidesheir »

CodeMonk wrote: The ONLY difference between the BBE and the Vertex NOS versions:
1. The Wah Pots
2. The BBE model I had, has carbon film resistors. I contacted Paul Gagon (The VP of Technology at BBE) and he told me that BBE went to metal film resistors near the end of 2009. Serial number on the BBE is : 200909087 which by my guess means it was made in September of 2009.
Paul confirmed this and added that it was the 87th Wah made in September 2009.
He was also very nice and thanked me for my "detective" work on this.
He seemed like the kind of guy I would enjoy having a beer with at the local pub/bar.
Gagon designs the pedals for G&L, pickups, project manager for the BBE stompbox line and designer for most of them too. He is a straight up heavyweight for music tech right now. I can also say he is respected throughout the BBE/G&L network from employees to dealers.
"Contemplate it - on the tree of woe." :Thulsa Doom

User avatar
CodeMonk
Degoop Doctor
Posts: 441
Joined: 02 May 2011, 08:20
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Post by CodeMonk »

CodeMonk wrote:
A few notes:
C1, C2: Greenies
C3, C4, C7, C9: Box
C5: Ceramic Disc
Update:
Caps were renamed on the new schematic, so..
C4, C6: Greenies
C1, C3, C7, C9: Box
C2: Ceramic Disc

User avatar
jalmonsalmon
Solder Soldier
Posts: 208
Joined: 14 Sep 2012, 23:49
Has thanked: 78 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Post by jalmonsalmon »

I am just flabbergasted...
I feel sorry for anyone that paid for one of these

Post Reply