Schumann Lion X

General documentation, gut shot, schematic links, ongoing circuit tracing, deep thoughts ... all about boutique stompboxes.
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RnFR
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Post by RnFR »

.why??? it looks like he just puts all together out of the box then just tries to stuff it in there however he can.
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Whoismarykelly
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Post by Whoismarykelly »

The thing that boggles my mind the most is that there are five different types of wire or cable in there.

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Sardon
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Post by Sardon »

So where's Schumann hiding out now? Someone needs to get their hands on a PLL and take it apart :secret:

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GoopGone
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Post by GoopGone »

someone on another forum got ahold of one and i thought i would share the info.

i know these are extremely rare and there are opinions of build quality, etc... but i'm kinda surprised that the people on this forum haven't jumped on the schumann threads and really tried to figure these pedals out.

I mean, It is the "holy grail" of boutique stuff... :D and look at that wiring. id bow down to anyone who could get through that like machete to jungle vines. :applause:

https://www.youtube.com/v/p8vELV9Qw68

https://www.youtube.com/v/Ky5xDQLJQPs

https://www.youtube.com/v/kdeQo1yT6R0

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IG88
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Post by IG88 »

hello folks. this is my lion x in question and while it is one of the most beautiful and visually appealing pedals i've ever seen, there is no mistake from my gut shots that it is an absolute mess within its innards. when all is said and done though, it sounds really really good, surprisingly no significant noise or hiss or bleed or interference considering all the spaghetti. it is temperamental though, and i mean that in a strictly sonic sense kind of like a fuzz factory where you will have it at one setting one day and the next day while on those very same settings, it will sound different. all in all it is a fucking loud overdrive+bent keyboard-esque sounding beast, but its a shame that it is not subject to gigging. i have decided that i would love to get a clone made of this thing made somehow and im about to send it up to a guy to retrofit things a bit and to hopefully trace out something while he is digging around in there. i took some pictures this morning and hope someone here can uncover what the fuck is going on in this thing, i have no idea where to start nor do i really have any deep knowledge in pedal building in general.
circuit 2
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circuit 1
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underside of circuit 1
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this circuit is glued along the front of the enclosure and wrapped in rubber shielding/tape. enclosed is a small white 'brick' with a hole in it. this is the best photo i could get and i have no clue as to what it is.


if anyone wants me to take anymore pictures just let me know, but keep in mind that its like maneuvering around a booby trapped maze so please bear with me.
Whoismarykelly wrote:
soulsonic wrote:That's a shameful piece of garbage.
The guy that bought it basically said it doesn't sound all that great either.

i have to backpedal on my initial review as i had only uncovered a good 30 percent of what this thing does and still was getting over its learning curve. it does sound excellent, but it is not on the same sonically-fucked-up plateau as the PLL so i was initially disappointed. on its own though, its a pretty unique device and is not bad at all, its just a shame that the build quality is not on par with its looks and sound...

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IG88
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Post by IG88 »

omarvolta wrote:For some reason I can't stop staring at the guts of the PLL....

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heres the rest of the set of those PLL guts

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gtrplaya101
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Post by gtrplaya101 »

I am sorry but that is just stupid :wink:

I would be ASHAMED to sell someone a pedal in that condition. A "cool" exterior is not an excuse to have a literal rats nest of wire. THIS is why I LOVE this place, exposing builders like this for what they really are.

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IG88
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Post by IG88 »

well i didn't buy it direct from main drag and i didn't pay much for it so i have no regrets, it made it worth it for the aesthetic appeal alone. if i decided to sell it, even if dead, im very sure i would break more than even so i have no qualms about opening this thing up and sharing it with the world. for me, it works on par with the rest of the pedals on my board and thats all that matters to me right now. im going to be using my own pedals most likely when i start building real soon and they'll probably look worse! i have a whole other opinion in terms of pedal 'art' so im not going to start arguing here.

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Post by WhiteKeyHole »

Are you sending the PLL out for tracing, too?

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guiddruid
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Post by guiddruid »

surely the most important thing is how it sounds, or how it sounds to some people? does it matter if the guy knew what he was doing, or if the circuit is a tweak on something else? or that it relies on the exact values of a bunch of low-precision components the guy had in a scrap box?

the electronics are hideously assembled, but that doesn't make the sound worthless.

jabbing holes in a speaker with a screwdriver wasn't a smart idea, but it helped create a new sound.

music is an art, not a science. capturing the sound & reliably mass producing it is engineering.

would be interesting to see a schematic. (even though I don't personally find the sound to my poor taste)

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noise31
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Post by noise31 »

cd4049ube,,,it´s great chip, like a the great destroyer sound....NICE SHOOT

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IG88
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Post by IG88 »

guiddruid wrote:surely the most important thing is how it sounds, or how it sounds to some people? does it matter if the guy knew what he was doing, or if the circuit is a tweak on something else? or that it relies on the exact values of a bunch of low-precision components the guy had in a scrap box?

the electronics are hideously assembled, but that doesn't make the sound worthless.

jabbing holes in a speaker with a screwdriver wasn't a smart idea, but it helped create a new sound.

music is an art, not a science. capturing the sound & reliably mass producing it is engineering.

would be interesting to see a schematic. (even though I don't personally find the sound to my poor taste)
:thumbsup

im still deciding when to send it up. it works just fine and im using it quite alot now, and im afraid that by digging around in there that it will surely kill something, the circuit as a whole cannot be removed as the LED's are glued into the enclosure( :hmmm: ). the bypass switches are a bit poppy but nothing bothersome, but when it starts to really give me trouble and becomes unreliable is when im gonna send it up to get it traced. i tried another round of getting as many photos as i could of the guts tonight and a better shot of the bottom of that circuit but everything is really constricted around there.
WhiteKeyHole wrote:Are you sending the PLL out for tracing, too?
i don't own one, i just managed to come across those photos from a guy who was trying to get in touch with john to get it repaired. if i had one though...you bet. theres not another effect i wan't to see cloned more than the PLL and if i could find one for less than $1500.00, i think it'd be more than worth it to get it and degoop it to figure out whats going on so people can build upon the design with more quality. from talking to john, the pll's out there were the most bare bones circuit he could get away with and that there was a great amount of potential to expand upon it but main drag kept him on a tight leash on wanted a consistent product, though the later PLL's made seemed to have some changes done to them to fix interference. if you've heard one in person, it is like running your guitar through an R2 droid.

noise31 wrote:cd4049ube,,,it´s great chip, like a the great destroyer sound....NICE SHOOT
yeah i was just looking at that thread and noticed that. interesting. i have never built a non pcb pedal before so im probably gonna give it a shot with making my own and see if its in the same realm as the lion-x. it's just as interactive with the guitars knobs and toggles as TGD, the TGD seems to be able to conjure up a more raspy and thin unpredictable array of noise while the lion is a bit smoother kind of like dicking around with the knobs on a synth.

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IG88
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Post by IG88 »

I did a bit more digging today and removed the electrical tape from one of the main circuits. this is what was there.

before removal of tape...
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after
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looks like he used bacon grease for some kind of flux
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now the only thing that i have yet to discover in this pedal is what is inside these 2 heatshrunk circuits that are glued together and then onto the inner wall of the enclosure itself , especially the larger circuit that is against the immediate wall of the enclosure. it seems that within the heatshrink, there is a small grey/whitish brick that is mounted atop a small piece of vero. this small 'brick' has a hole on each of its side with one set of grey/black/white unified cable coming out(not from the holes, the holes are open and exposed) from the left of it and then leading to one of the main circuits where the grey/black(represented in the photo below with a pink line) divides to their alloted points on the board. there is then another piece of grey/black/white cable coming out from the right, fed between the 2 circuits(where they are glued) and then entering the left of the 2nd smaller heatshrunk circuit(represented with a green line). the larger white rectangled off area is the circuit containing the 'brick' that i am talking about. smaller white rectangled area is the 2nd heatshrunk circuit, and from my observation, it looks like that within is only 2 purple capacitors(no clue on the value) on their side(see 2ND CIRCUIT photo). now the reason this circuit is interesting is that it is a part that i have never seen within a pedal before and assessment from a good number of other builders have no real clue either. what in the hell is that!!!!!!???????????????????? I am weary of breaking the glue seal and removing those 2 circuits glued together but i'd really like to find out what is in there.
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here are close ups of the 1st 'BRICKED' circuit that i am talking about. these are the best photos i could get for the time being so please bear with me till i can get something better
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here is a close up of the 2nd smaller circuit glued onto the first circuit containing what only looks like 2 purple capacitors.
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any and all help would be greatly appreciated on some bright ideas on finding out what this could possible be.

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cpm
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Post by cpm »

this is a nightmare :whappen:
its bound to fail and dont believe even the guy himsef could repair it.

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oldgravity
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Post by oldgravity »

I can't tell if this guy is an idiot or genius.

On one hand, I can imagine why he went out of business. Building pedals like that with 4 tiny boards connected by endless wires is extremely time-consuming. A smart person would design a single board for the entire circuit. Building like this is an enormous waste of time, and it makes the profit from each pedal much smaller.

I can only imagine he built a simple fuzz face clone, but it was too quiet, so he tacked a LPB-1 on it, but it reacted weird with one of his guitars, so he tacked a buffer on the beginning, but then the volume knob made other pedals down the line act weird so he tacked on an output buffer...

On the other hand, this is a much more effective way to goop a circuit than goop. just looking at that makes me want to design a whole new thing from the ground up rather than trying to reverse it.

So maybe he's an idiot who stopped making pedals because he was making McDonald's-level wages building pedals the hard way. Or maybe he's a genius, more likely to foil FSB than all the goop in the world...

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Kilby
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Post by Kilby »

Looking at his soldering & wiring I'd consider it fairly likely that he got tired of repairing the things.

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tsmith
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Post by tsmith »

Takes the term pedal guts to a whole new level :lol:

I'm thinking this guy is extremely eccentric. I want to meet him.

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Boxbie
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Post by Boxbie »

Bump?

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Boxbie
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Post by Boxbie »

Has anyone traced this pedal?

I know there is a lot of hate for his building skills, but I love the sound of this pedal!

So yeah, has anyone tried?

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Whoismarykelly
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Post by Whoismarykelly »

I owned one briefly and I remember the guts were as bad as anything else the dude ever made.

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