Kay - Fuzztone (F-1)  [schematic]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...
Fastnet
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Post by Fastnet »

Morning all,
Seen this tread has become active again...
All is well with my build so many thanks again to all who made it happen.

Just one question, is it possible to boost the ouput and bring the pedal up to unity gain or perhaps even slightly above?
I'm aware the actual design isn't an "award winning" version but as my first all singing, all farting fuzz I'd like to persevere. ..

Kind regards to all as usual,
J.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley
or...
"Pog mo thoin!"

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Post by mictester »

analogguru wrote:This has been discussed to a "dead horse" at the other forum ages ago. Google is your friend - you only have to use it:

https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/ ... ic=55883.0

http://johannburkard.de/blog/music/effe ... -Tone.html

Therefore I don´t understand, why there always doubts come up.

BTW, The Kay Fuzz Tone is the poor man´s version of the Univox Super Fuzz, and later the Ibanez Standard Fuzz:
http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/193/schem ... rdFuzz.gif

Maybe the Ibanez Standard Fuzz will fit your taste better.

analogguru
Messing around with some Vero and Little Lance's "Fuzz IC", I threw together a Kay / Ibanez. It's not the smallest Vero layout, but it works. The octave is really pronounced (because of the great balance of the long-tailed pair in the IC). I selected the bias resistors for the long-tailed pair from the ones I had in the drawer the 150k and 22k resistors were selected to match.
Kay / Ibanez with a 3046
Kay / Ibanez with a 3046
Sounds great! This has persuaded me to design a PCB for it!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"

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mictester
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Post by mictester »

As promised: The PCB. Built three of these in the last few days, and they sound really great. It's worth choosing the 150k and 22k bias resistors for the long-tailed pair. I found a pair of 148k7 for the first one, another had a pair of 151k and so on. If you have a bag of (say) 20 resistors, you should be able to find two that are identical. It really is worth the effort - the better balanced the transistors are, the more doubling you'll hear!

Experiment with the tone "voice" filter - one player liked the 1n increased to 3n3, another wanted 1n5. I put the 1n in the board, then solder a padding capacitor across the terminals under the board!

There are interesting sounds available with the "Drive" turned down and the "Level" advanced. If you use the "straight", unfiltered "Voice", you can get some very subtle colouration that sounds like a Fender amp just on the verge of going into distortion. My Country-playing friend really likes using it this way.

Other modifications - the "Voice" switch I use is a DPDT, with the second pole used to drive a bi-colour LED to indicate mode. I've used the ultra-low current relay driver for silent, true bypass. I also added a muting transistor across the "Drive" pot, driven by the relay switching circuit, so that there wasn't any chance of breakthrough in "Bypass" mode.

Using the CA3046 is a pretty good emulation of the old, lower gain silicon transistors that were used in the 1970s. People mostly didn't take the Kay pedal seriously because it was in a cheap, brightly-coloured plastic box, and was sneered at as a toy by serious guitarists. They didn't know what they were missing!
Here it is!
Here it is!
Track Side:
Kay3046Tracks.png
This pedal sips current from a 9V battery, and really does sound great. If GGG or GuitarPCB want to make this board, please go ahead. It works and sounds great!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"

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mictester
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Post by mictester »

One thing I forgot - use any Germanium diodes (or the base-emitter junction of a low gain germanium transistor). If you want a louder, more aggressive sound, use Schottky or silicon diodes. Silicon will be outrageously loud, and will cause the last stage to distort too, which (to my ears) sounds horrible, but you can try it if you want.

This pedal really cuts through in a band situation, and it has some great sounds available!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"

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Post by Chugs »

Looks cool Mictester. I have played around a bit with the Kay circuit myself. Do you have a schematic of your version?

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Post by Mbas974 »

Michester,
from your experience what is the best MOD to get the U2-Elevetion sound with this new circuit ?
The voice switch is supposed to be the hot potz ...is it right ?
Schematic wil be appreciate as well tx

Fastnet
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Post by Fastnet »

Mbas974 wrote:Michester,
from your experience what is the best MOD to get the U2-Elevetion sound with this new circuit ?
The voice switch is supposed to be the hot potz ...is it right ?
Schematic wil be appreciate as well tx
Hi Mbas,

Although he's famous for exotic and rare pieces of kit, I've read that he was first introduced to the Kay by Danny Lanois and the rest as they say is history!
So for that reason, I would have thought that Edge's unit was just "reinforced" to stand up to the rigors of touring and therefore assume that his would be true to the original... my build sounds very close but you can't ignore that some processing will have been added during the mixing and mastering of the studio take.
Have a look at this, it might point you in the right direction...
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeupLXuo ... DbwixHCd7A[/youtube]

Do fancy following the latest rendition by Mictester when I get time... thanks for some late nights of frustration in advance!

Cheers,

J.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley
or...
"Pog mo thoin!"

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Post by Mbas974 »

Tx Fastnet, I've already built a couple of KayFuzz clone circuit using BossGBC95 enclosure using original schem.
....Edge FX chains both live and studio is well know :-))

What I was asking is a "smart/fast way" to get close to... with the new Op-amp circuit.
But since I can't get the replay, I will test it on board by myself.

Fastnet
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Post by Fastnet »

No trouble fella,
Keep us posted with the results...

J.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley
or...
"Pog mo thoin!"

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Post by Bernardduur »

sinner wrote:Ok, I almost search of my ass to find this pict of the pot. Factory schemo is wrong as you clearly see. K-fuzz pot is not 50k, it's actually 250k so AM schemo is right here
The schematic is quite all right; the factory potmeter is 250k, B, but in this pedal the potmeter is only used for a small amount of travel.

If the travel of the potmeter by the threadle was max then you should use a 50k potmeter with a 200k resistor to ground

The travel of the threadle in the Kay is very minimal. It only uses 50k of the 250k potmeter, the restant (200k) is left to ground as drawn in the schematic.
'No more....... loud music.......'

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Post by theyear2042 »

hey guys

i just built this with 2n5088 Q1/2 and 2n3904 Q3/4

i'm getting quite a lot of gating on low volume notes. sounds great then when the note rings out it gates to silence really quickly.

im thinking its trannies not biased properly.

do other people have this problem? if not, can you let me know the hfe of the trannies. ive read some people say 500 - 600hfe for the kay fuzztone, where i my 2n3904's are reading 180hfe.

cheers

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Post by theyear2042 »

sorted my problem - used a 100k bias resistor where i should have used a 10k. damn.

still gates a little bit but no where near as much. pretty cool effect.

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Post by johnk »

I uilt mictester's CA3046 version. shoukld I assume that the unmarked resistor directly below the CA3046 is a 510K as shown by the color bands?.

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Post by francis1978 »

I hope this thread is still open,

well I've or tempted, should I say, to build a kay fuzz clone. Everything seems perfect except for the low volume and no fuzz; although I can hear the octave. What it's more strange is that I can only hear when I select the middle pickup of my guitar... the bridge and neck are very faint. I had to desolder all elements including the jacks and switch as the early attempts were giving no results. Now the jacks and pot are connected string to the board which in turn is connected to my GT-10 (I will test it on my amp next week). However, this shouldn't prevent me to hear the fuzz.

Using pictures of the original board I was able to recreate the layout and this mine has been built in the same way. I used BC548 instead of 2SC644S and 2SC828 (as per original) and the diodes are 1N34A.

Transistors (Qs) read:

Q1 Q2 Q3/4
E 0.25 2.39 0.26
B 0.80 2.85 0.81
C 2.74 4.64 7.60

For diodes, well when I connect the multimeter leads (at Volt), there are no reading.. but they test 294 and 301 so I guess these in the voltage drop ranges..

I am wondering, what have gone wrong??

I used the tranbaland schematics which has the 2n2f cap at correct the position (compare the original board).

Any ideas??

Is driving me nuts

thanks

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Post by Mbas974 »

If you are attemping to reach The edge tone better using 2SC945 (as the original unit use...),
but you should reach a good fuzz too using any other TRX.

low volume.... did you double check the pinout of used TRX ?

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Post by francis1978 »

First thing first, sorry for the typos.. it was late when I wrote the message and was unable to recall it to edit.

Mbas974.. thanks for the prompt reply.. yes it is working.. I did have the pinouts of the TRX soldered correctly.. the mistakes were:

1. negative 9+v snap was not connected to ground; and
2. in/out jack were going to ground, so when I removed and connected together alleluia!!!! .. I guess I was blinded by frustration :evil:

Now the only thing left is the swell .. I was trying with a linear pot but I have a log one so I will swap it and check it again.. but at least the fuzz is working and its bloody loud!! :lol:

Again, as the original board, I have not connected the 100K resistor from output to ground so will see :mrgreen:
Mbas974 wrote:If you are attemping to reach The edge tone better using 2SC945 (as the original unit use...),
but you should reach a good fuzz too using any other TRX.

low volume.... did you double check the pinout of used TRX ?

Fastnet
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Post by Fastnet »

Just a little update, finally sat down and swopped out the germaniums for some 1N4148's and it is outrageously loud!
It pushes my VOX much harder and doesn't loose that much of the octave either which I was quite surprised about... cant say what sounds better just a very handy boost which has made this less of a one trick pony as I'm using it for some solo's as well.
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." Aldous Huxley
or...
"Pog mo thoin!"

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Post by francis1978 »

Ok now I'm getting frustrated...

The board is working, fuzz is great but there is no tone at all. The pot acts more like a volume control... no bass/treble when rolled back/forward. I'm getting annoyed...

I have attached my traces with the original and my own board which is the big one on the draw. Can anyone see what the hell did I do wrong??

Thanks.
Attachments
kayfuzzforum.jpg

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Post by francis1978 »

Problem solved!!!! :applause:

The pedal is working. Thank you all for letting me vent!

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