Orange Bass Butler  [schematic]

All about modern commercial stompbox circuits from Electro Harmonix over MXR, Boss and Ibanez into the nineties.
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Tassieviking
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Post by Tassieviking »

Bajaman, do you know how much power the unit uses with the MC33178 as well as how much it uses with original IC's ?
It would be really helpful to know so I can work out what sort of voltage booster is needed to run it on 9v.
Ie. do I need a 1 amp booster or 100mA booster on the 18v rail.

I can get the MC33178 chips on E-bay or use the SMD ones with a SOIC8 to DIP8 converter.

Every time I look at the schematic I feel like the ground should be -9V and VC should be treated as the ground, even the ground fill should be at VC (1/2) voltage.

I wonder what the output and the XLR outs would be like if the VC was the earth reference for the outputs, but that is most likely my inexperience with audio circuits coming through.
There are some small 9v to -9v converters on E-bay, but the -9v output only has 180mA from memory , I can't find them at the moment.

It would be nice to be able to build a voltage booster straight on the PCB since I am trying to make a different PCB for my build, Tuck did a heck of a good job making his PCB up.
I like to have the box wider then taller, I try to keep the height about the same as a 125B, 1590B, 1590BB are.
I used the LT1054 IC when I made +15v and -15v for my SUNN BETA pedal, but it has a maximum of 100mA output.

Cheers
Mick

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Post by bajaman »

Tassieviking
From the datasheet: the MC33178 consumes just 470uA per amplifier (or 940uA per package !) - call it 1mA ;-)
If you use 8 of these the total current draw would therefore be less than 8mA !
An LT1054 would be perfectly adequate
I used these on my build: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002 ... 1802XHiX3c
cheers
bajaman
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tuck
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Post by tuck »

Hi Mick,

according to this post the current draw is only 50mA
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/orange ... t-23906734
As Bajaman wrote an LT1054 is good.

Thanks for the kind words on the pcb but it needs some modifications like trimmers, a few layout changes etc.
Bajaman did a nice job on his revision.

Btw how critical is the trace width for such builds?

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Post by Tassieviking »

That is the regulators I saw on E-bay Bajaman, and then I couldn't find them anymore when I wanted another look.
That's the regulator that made me think about making the power a dual rail setup, +9v -9v and ground in between.
I was worried that if I use more then one pedal from the same power supply the earth would be transferred through the TS cable, and the earth in the Bass Butler would be at -9v compared to the ground in the 9v power supply.
A LT1054 would turn the +9v to +18v so that would be no problem as the earth remains at the same potential as the 9v power brick. The LT1054 are getting a bit pricey lately which is the only drawback.

I use a simple L7809 regulator in my power supply, with 4 outlets from it, I boost the voltage to 9.7v and then I go through a 1N5817 diode to each outlet so it drops down to just over 9v at each outlet.
I have a 680uF cap and 100nF on the supply before the 7809, and then I have 100uF and 100nF on each outlet AFTER the 1N5817 diode to each outlet.
I am hoping that the 1N5817 will prevent noise from one pedal to come through the power lead and into another pedal.
The caps and diodes are so cheap and I had them laying around so I thought why not give it a try, all in a 1590A pedal.
I can use 12v to 34v into the brick and get 9v out, the next one I make will have a bridge rectifier on the power inlet so I can use any old wall wart as long as its above 12v, AC or DC.

Tuck, that's a lot of reading I have to get through on the other Bass Butler post, but I'm sure it will be worth it.
Time is the only problem as I have some PCB's on the way for the Passinwind PW3B-LPFv2 pedal I am doing for over on theTalkBass forum, I want to get that one finished and tested so Charlie can put all the files and Gerbers up on the Wiki page he has made up for it so anyone can order PCB's.
I cant really help with the trace width as I go overboard and use 0.6mm for normal traces and 1mm for all power traces on my PCB's.
Cheers
Michael

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Post by Tassieviking »

Speaking of modifications, would there be any use in adding 2 Pre-Drive pots on this pedal ?
Hard to explain but basically 2 pots that are in place if no expression pedal is plugged in, with a stomp-switch to select which pot is used.
You could have one pot set at a small amount of dirt for a clean tone with a little dash of dirt, and the second pot cranked for lots of dirt.
The other dirt on/off switch is still in play of course, I better stick a small drawing in here (In PDF).

The other mod is for Bajamans mod. is there any point in adding a switch so I can add more capacitance across C30, C33, C36 to your mod ? Leave it standard with 680nF caps and parallel the 4u7 and 10uF with a switch, or is it the Cx caps that make the most difference. Or maybe use 2x 3PDT switches to switch all caps in/out ?
The dirt channel is supposed to sound like a guitar amp after all.

Another possibly stupid question, It has been said that the XLR outs have inbuilt cab sims but not in the OUT jack.
Can a switch be installed so the OUT can be switched to pick up after the cab sims in the XLR circuit as well ?
I guess you would have to check/measure that manually on a pre-built Butler or run a sim to see if the voltage is there to tap into.

Lastly, in case it is not obvious, the expression jack can be used as an effects loop, Ring is send and tip is return.
You just have to make a lead with a stereo plug going to two mono plugs.
Cheers
Michael
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Bass Buttler Inbuilt Expression dual Pre-Set.pdf
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Post by tuck »

A lot to read, the cabsim on the regular out would be cool and the loop is also a nice idea.
Regarding the pots you have to keep in mind that the gain pot is a dual pot.

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Post by Tassieviking »

The extra pots would be wired to act like an expression pedal, but with 2 set pot values switchable between the pots.
You would leave the Drive channel on and switch between a little bit or a lot of dirt on the output.
You can have a mainly clean sound with just a little bit of growl and then switch to full on growl.
It would only be useful if you don't have an expression pedal plugged in.
If you plug an expression pedal in it would bypass the 2 extra pots.
I just wondered if it might be worthwhile for an extra $5 in parts to try it.
(I don't play Bass, Daughter has one though.)

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Post by Tassieviking »

I don't know what difference the cabsims have on the sound, you need to have a Bass Butler to find out.
I think you would have to run a spice program to see if there is a place after the cabsim to wire the out circuit to.
Or you could just measure the PCB with a signal generator hooked up to the Butler maybe.
I just thought it might be cool to be able to switch the normal output to before/after the cabsim circuit.

I am presuming the cabsim output would be at the output of IC1b and IC6b, but I might be wrong as I'm guessing.

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Post by subbass »

Hi. Here you go. These include Bajaman's corrections on the clean channel. 3 resistors changed. It was cutting treble side much more on the v3 schematic.
Still, that's a dramatic notch on the clean side which I wouldn't like to use all the time. It would sound very good on some stuff but also very annoying on some genres and styles, killing all your mid presence unless you mix with drive at all times.

Overall, I'd prefer using seperate EQs or amp/cabsims instead. At least that clean mid notch requires a control for this to be useful, IMO.
butlerXLR.png

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Post by subbass »

A simple mod to bypass the notch filter makes that a lot more flexible. Then, there's nothing else special going on, is there? You won't notice the treble cut @5.5/6Khz much and the bass can be pre-boosted on the previous EQ stage.

I mean, too many opamps for this little effect. Just this notch section could be enough by itself with this switch and some gain recovery. lol
butlerXLRmod.png

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Post by mediy »

I am pretty sure that if the box has space you could just add in an extra 1/4" socket after the cab sim but before the DI and then choose which to plug into. It may need an extra small board added in (Maybe attached to a PCB mount 1/4") but you could even have a small op amp mixer and a single output with both clean and dirty channels mixed together (I am thinking modelled on the mixer already in there for the non-cabsim outputs. I don't know enough to know for sure if you would need to alter the standard Bass Butler circuit to account for any impacts of the extra circuit though. Could make something up and experiment though.

XLR to 1/4" adapters are not expensive either.

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Post by Tassieviking »

I might have found a fault on the schematic, at least the one I'm playing with.
Q6 pin1 should go to the negative side of C23, not the positive side.
At least that is what it appears to be from the photo of the original Bass Butler.
I could be wrong as it is hard to see where the + symbol is on the photo but I think I can see the stripe on the bottom of the capacitor.
Tuck, have you still got the Bass Butler to check that out ?
Or maybe if you have a better close up photo of C23 in the original Buttler ?
I hope it is just writing that makes me think the stripe is to the bottom of that capacitor.
Cheers
Michael

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Post by bajaman »

Michael
If you are referring to the Orange part numbers, and running the circuit at +18v then Q6 pin 1 (source) definitely connects to the positive terminal of C23
cheers
bajaman
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Post by tuck »

Tassieviking, wouldn't it be easier to add a small little Booster to the front?
viewtopic.php?p=265644
This way you could have a boost for clean and dirt. Just add a trim pot on the inside and a footswitch.

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Post by Tassieviking »

subbass wrote: 17 Mar 2023, 16:21 A simple mod to bypass the notch filter makes that a lot more flexible. Then, there's nothing else special going on, is there? You won't notice the treble cut @5.5/6Khz much and the bass can be pre-boosted on the previous EQ stage.

I mean, too many opamps for this little effect. Just this notch section could be enough by itself with this switch and some gain recovery. lol

butlerXLRmod.png
I keep looking at that 100k resistor (R14), and I wonder, what if that was a 100k pot.
You could vary the notch, and its no more work then adding the switch.
I think I should stop trying to modify the circuit and just stick to the original (with Bajamans mod of course).

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Post by Tassieviking »

Bajaman, have you seen the the XL6019 voltage booster boards ?
I just got the last one from Tayda so I looked up the specs, it can boost 9v up to around 30v approx, and its variable.
I think 9v to 18v it should be able to provide 800mA output, and they are only $2-$3 approx.
In the specs for the chip it says 60v max output and max switching voltage is 5 Amps
I can see them on Ebay for $3,53 AU delivered, AliExpress are about $3 AU delivered.
https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale- ... =price_asc
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XL6019 datasheet-English.pdf
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Post by bajaman »

Bajaman, have you seen the the XL6019 voltage booster boards ?

Yes, i have used them - they work great at 30v ;-)
cheers
bajaman
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Post by tuck »

Finished the box without the DI out
IMG_9927.jpeg
IMG_9935.jpeg
The family. The single compressor is not on my list right now. But maybe in a few weeks.
IMG_9933.jpeg

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Post by tuck »

A strange thing is that the J201 need a drain voltage below 10V to get the drive section to work. In the beginning without any turn on the bias trimmers there was a really bad gated fuzz sound. I measured 4 to 7V. Then I set them to 12V with the result that there was no distortion at all. Also at 10V. Down to 9V worked really good. The distortion in the small pedal which only contains the drive section is set to exactly 10V and all is fine. These are J201 from the same paperstrip (or whatever the specific term is for this).
The only difference is the missing input section the bigger box has.
And now I don’t get the red LED to light up. On the complete build with DI out the LED lights up perfectly. Maybe the vactrol is not correct. I ordered a 5C3 without any marking which means that it should be the non RhOS compliant version. Now I have to figure out how to measure it to prove if it’s the correct one.

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Post by Tassieviking »

That looks awesome Tuck, if you want to use the DI out just use a stereo 1/4 inch jack.
You could make a small cable with the 1/4 inch plug on one end and a 3 pin XLR socket on the other end to use as a patch cable.
Cheers
Mick

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