True Bypass Pros/Cons or My Bypass is Better Than Yours

[diggum12]

Then comes Mic who starts to state as loud as he can that it's bull and caused by tolerance only and that he once "proved" this when (co)designing some hifi-amplifier. Naturally it would be interesting to know which amplifier.

Agreed. That's not scientific, not in the least. No control group, no testing multiple identical parts...

And he's wrong on the tolerance part of it to. Tants sound like tants, ceramics sound like ceramics.... So find a tant, ceramic, poly, electros, metal film (box and bulb!) and test each one until you find 5 different types that are exactly the same value Then insert into an effect.

I'd be willing to bet if you had a pedal with all tants, or all metal films, or what have you, that were all exactly their printed value, they would all sound a little bit different.

Petemoore over at diystompboxes had a great quote that I'll paraphrase: "Electrons have a habit of coming out sounding like what they were passed through." And THAT'S what you can take to the bank.

[DrNomis]

Just cause he doesn't say anything about what he did at those companies,doesn't mean that his advice,or experience is a load of bollocks,would you say the same for my experience,or advice too?....

Nope.
But I do not see claims from you stated the way Mic states em.

As an example,
Countless people have been experimenting with the influence of caps in their effects. Then comes Mic who starts to state as loud as he can that it's bull and caused by tolerance only and that he once "proved" this when (co)designing some hifi-amplifier. Naturally it would be interesting to know which amplifier.

Deadsilent....

And in such a manner one can see Mic many times. Making statements with no other foundation than repetition of "how true it is and that he once at a company....."

Well,all electronic components have a property called tolerance,this is simply because it is very difficult to make them exact,resistors and capacitors are a good example,the actual values of resistors and capacitors can be anywhere + or - a certain percentage of the marked value,it is both impractical and expensive to make them exact in value,but there is actually no real need to have them exact,resistors are normally in a range of values called "Preferred Values",and these preferred values can be grouped in what's called the "E16" or "E24" series,what this means is that,for every decade range there can be either 16 or 24 consecutive values,I think Capacitors are similar too,as Mictester stated,sometimes component tolerances can affect a circuit operation,ICs are a good example,I have seen where certain makes of some ICs designed for TVs have caused faults due to tolerances,my Little Angel build is another good example,I used all the correct value parts and everything looked fine,but my build simply refused to operate at all,turned out that the PT2399 IC I used was locking up intermittently,I put that down to component tolerances,so I believe that Mictester is right in his assertions about component tolerances,components do have tolerances,and these tolerances do have an effect on circuit operation,it may be either a subtle effect,or it may be so extreme as to prevent normal circuit behaviour,but it most certainly does happen.....

[DrNomis]

Then comes Mic who starts to state as loud as he can that it's bull and caused by tolerance only and that he once "proved" this when (co)designing some hifi-amplifier. Naturally it would be interesting to know which amplifier.

Agreed. That's not scientific, not in the least. No control group, no testing multiple identical parts...

And he's wrong on the tolerance part of it to. Tants sound like tants, ceramics sound like ceramics.... So find a tant, ceramic, poly, electros, metal film (box and bulb!) and test each one until you find 5 different types that are exactly the same value Then insert into an effect.

I'd be willing to bet if you had a pedal with all tants, or all metal films, or what have you, that were all exactly their printed value, they would all sound a little bit different.

Petemoore over at diystompboxes had a great quote that I'll paraphrase: "Electrons have a habit of coming out sounding like what they were passed through." And THAT'S what you can take to the bank.

No,every type of electronic component,active or passive,has a property called tolerance,it is a measure of how much + or - of a certain percentage the actual values or specs will fall within either marked values,or published Specs,this is simply because electronic components are very difficult to make exact,even resistors accurate to .1% + or - the marked value still aren't exact,component tolerances do have an effect on circuit operation and it can be either subtle or very extreme to the point where circuits fail to work properly,it can and does happen,simple as that.....

[dai h.]

The only advantage of "true bypass" is that it will pass a signal with a dead battery!

never underestimate the cheapness of guitarists

[Greg]

Petemoore over at diystompboxes had a great quote that I'll paraphrase: "Electrons have a habit of coming out sounding like what they were passed through." And THAT'S what you can take to the bank.

Of course.. electrons don't actually pass through a capacitor anyway (nor many other components).
The electrons coming out the other end of your circuit are not the ones that went in from your guitar (or whatever else).

I know it's obvious to anyone who understands the physics, but I'm sure many hobbyists think they have to somehow preserve the purity of those original electrons.

[lolbou]

Of course.. electrons don't actually pass through a capacitor anyway (nor many other components).

And those who are actually travelling are so SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW that the one that left you guitar an hour ago is still in your jack...

[Greg]

Of course.. electrons don't actually pass through a capacitor anyway (nor many other components).

And those who are actually travelling are so SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW that the one that left you guitar an hour ago is still in your jack...

haha.. very true lolbou !

[Hides-His-Eyes]

Drift speeds are hilariously pathetic

[mictester]

Countless people have been experimenting with the influence of caps in their effects. Then comes Mic who starts to state as loud as he can that it's bull and caused by tolerance only and that he once "proved" this when (co)designing some hifi-amplifier. Naturally it would be interesting to know which amplifier.

I think you misread what I actually wrote. The capacitor measurements and listening tests that I did about 25 years ago were for the design of a gram pre-amplifier (surely a sensitive enough circuit to show up component differences) for a mid-price range of Technics amplifiers at the plant in Kobe.

We selected capacitors carefully for identical values - they were selected from hundreds of samples, and were accurately matched to several digits. The measurements consisted of frequency sweeps with signal cancellation (look up the cancellation method, it's quite enlightening) and tracking filters removing the fundamental, and then monitoring the harmonics (a pretty accurate means of measuring distortion and other artefacts).

We found that the measured differences (and there were some tiny ones) were so insignificant that they were far outweighed by the cumulative resistor noise and shot noise in the semiconductors, and the tiniest differences in the performance of the semiconductors. The inescapable conclusion was that at 30V rail, with audio input levels in the 10 mV range and an output around 1V p-p, with capacitors rated for more than the supply voltage, there was no practical difference whatsoever at audio frequencies between different types of capacitor. There were measurable differences at frequencies well beyond audio - primarily due to the internal inductance of the capacitors (some even exhibit a self-resonant frequency, but this is well up into the RF).

Exactly the same principles apply to guitar pedals. You're using the capacitors well inside their ratings, and the signal levels are so small that they won't be affected by the "large signal non-linearity" "discovered" in the Bateman Wireless World articles.

If it makes you happy, and you can get a few more Pounds, Euros, Yen, Zlotys or Dollars because you've used pretty or "mojo-rated" components, then good for you! I'll keep on using components that fit neatly into my boards, and don't cost stupid amounts of money!

[Dirk_Hendrik]

Countless people have been experimenting with the influence of caps in their effects. Then comes Mic who starts to state as loud as he can that it's bull and caused by tolerance only and that he once "proved" this when (co)designing some hifi-amplifier. Naturally it would be interesting to know which amplifier.

I think you misread what I actually wrote. The capacitor measurements and listening tests that I did about 25 years ago were for the design of a gram pre-amplifier (surely a sensitive enough circuit to show up component differences) for a mid-price range of Technics amplifiers at the plant in Kobe.

If it makes you happy, and you can get a few more Pounds, Euros, Yen, Zlotys or Dollars because you've used pretty or "mojo-rated" components, then good for you! I'll keep on using components that fit neatly into my boards, and don't cost stupid amounts of money!

Thanks! Another tip revealed.

As for the use of mojo caps... Where have you ever seen something I build (Of which pics are available on this forum plenty) that uses mojo components? I tend to select my components on exactly the same basis. Form, fit, function and finance.

[IvIark]

But you do realize that those "Mojo" parts Mictester is talking about,will have either a,no effect on the sound or tone of the pedal,or b,if there is an effect on the sound/tone,it's probably going to be detrimental....

No I don't realise that at all, that's the whole point, that is just yours and mictester's opinion. And how would you or mictester know what anything I use sounds like when you don't even know what I use? I wouldn't suggest people use £20 NOS caps in their builds because some of the claims are ludicrous, but then even though I can hear differences in some cap types, I also wouldn't evangalise that everyone should build how I build and with the components I choose. Unlike mictester I don't try to tell people what they should or shouldn't use, I'm sure people on here are competent enough to make their own choices.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

But you do realize that those "Mojo" parts Mictester is talking about,will have either a,no effect on the sound or tone of the pedal,or b,if there is an effect on the sound/tone,it's probably going to be detrimental....

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CARBON COMP RESISTORS...

There is no such thing as a detrimental effect in a guitar pedal, IMO. Look at those circuits which have been around since the 60s and 70s, that people are still building. Germanium has "detrimental effects", valves have "detrimental effects", etc., and people love the way those sound.

[DrNomis]

But you do realize that those "Mojo" parts Mictester is talking about,will have either a,no effect on the sound or tone of the pedal,or b,if there is an effect on the sound/tone,it's probably going to be detrimental....

No I don't realise that at all, that's the whole point, that is just yours and mictester's opinion. And how would you or mictester know what anything I use sounds like when you don't even know what I use? I wouldn't suggest people use £20 NOS caps in their builds because some of the claims are ludicrous, but then even though I can hear differences in some cap types, I also wouldn't evangalise that everyone should build how I build and with the components I choose. Unlike mictester I don't try to tell people what they should or shouldn't use, I'm sure people on here are competent enough to make their own choices.

Cause I've had practical experience with it over the more than 20 odd years that I've been into electronics,I know from firsthand experience what all those capacitors,resistors,and semiconductors are really capable of....

[DrNomis]

But you do realize that those "Mojo" parts Mictester is talking about,will have either a,no effect on the sound or tone of the pedal,or b,if there is an effect on the sound/tone,it's probably going to be detrimental....

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CARBON COMP RESISTORS...

There is no such thing as a detrimental effect in a guitar pedal, IMO. Look at those circuits which have been around since the 60s and 70s, that people are still building. Germanium has "detrimental effects", valves have "detrimental effects", etc., and people love the way those sound.

Yes,I'm not doubting that,I use valves myself and I really love working with them,and I also use Germanium transistors too,they can go hissy/noisey,like carbon composition resistors can do,carbon composition resistors can go high in value as they age,if people want to use them in their stompboxes,that's fine by me,I don't use them because they are hard to get where I live,so I just use what's avalible off the shelf,I'm just saying that those mojo parts can go faulty if they are old....

[IvIark]

Cause I've had practical experience with it over the more than 20 odd years that I've been into electronics,I know from firsthand experience what all those capacitors,resistors,and semiconductors are really capable of....

I'm a qualified electrical engineer who worked for Siemens for 14 years as a control systems engineer. Does my own history allow me to make my own choices of components I use without being evangelised to?

[IvIark]

I'm just saying that those mojo parts can go faulty if they are old....

No that's not what you said. You said using them was "probably going to be detrimental". A generalised statement like that makes about as much sense as saying people shouldn't drive blue cars because they break down more.

[DrNomis]

Cause I've had practical experience with it over the more than 20 odd years that I've been into electronics,I know from firsthand experience what all those capacitors,resistors,and semiconductors are really capable of....

I'm a qualified electrical engineer who worked for Siemens for 14 years as a control systems engineer. Does my own history allow me to make my own choices of components I use without being evangelised to?

Of course it does,you are perfectly entitled to use whatever parts you want,as you see fit.....

[mictester]

Thanks! Another tip revealed.

As for the use of mojo caps... Where have you ever seen something I build (Of which pics are available on this forum plenty) that uses mojo components? I tend to select my components on exactly the same basis. Form, fit, function and finance.

Dirk - again, we find that we're "singing from the same songsheet"! I didn't specifically mean YOU when I said that I was happy for anyone to charge extra for using "mojo" components!

I get very frustrated with the specious claims of the "golden eared" people. These are the people who:

1. Claim that wire can be directional
2. That the composition or even the colour of the sleeving on a wire affects the signal passing through it
3. Claim that "Oxygen free" wire "sounds better"
4. Claim that different capacitor types of the same value can "sound different"
5. Claim that valve hi-fi amplifiers have less distortion than solid-state ones
6. Claim that they can hear the difference between 0.0018% distortion and 0.014% distortion (the THD specifications of two commercial amplifiers I designed)
7. Claim that they can hear the difference between a 1970s Big Muff Pi and a 1990s one on stage

I used to waste my time trying to dispel these silly myths, but now I'm older (and a bit wiser), I let them believe their nonsense, and waste their money for no sonic benefit whatsoever. If the inhabitants of TGP think that it's worth paying $$$ for Tubescreamer derivatives and other worthless junk, then I'm happy to let them get on with it. My customers pay sensible prices - based on the hours of work I do for them - and always come back for more gear. There are some players that I've been building stuff for over the last 30 years!

[lolbou]

3. Claim that "Oxygen free" wire "sounds better"

I thought this was not related to sound but to the cable "shocks noise" immunity (with low-level signals).
I mean, you don't hear when someone steps on your jack with OFC copper, though you hear a "thump" in your amp with the classic copper one.

I've heard it myself with a poor quality jack. But never experienced it again with the better ones I use now.

But the audiophile that sells components here in Le Havre only sells OFC cable for speakers...

[Lonkero]

4. Claim that different capacitor types of the same value can "sound different"

I can hear difference between ceramic and polyprop cap when A/B them in the same circuit on solderless bredboard (And i've tried many of those with same values). You gotta be deaf if you can't hear that.

Ceramic cap definetely sounds more dirty and aggressive, and polyprop is cleaner and more transparent (when placed as input cap in high gain circuit). Nothing annoys me more than people who deny these thing just because they themselves can't hear it. This is pretty same as comparing 128kbsp mp3 to CD quality. Some people just don't hear the difference no matter what.