Lonkero wrote:I once thought I'll create a topic regarding the capacitor differences on tone, but then I remembered someone here sure will come and say that's all bullshit and nobody should not believe that, since he knows everything. And then the open conversation is f****d up immediately.
Not at all. I'd say: "If you have an opinion on the "sound" of particular capacitors, SHOW ME!"
I'd be fascinated to see a definitive experiment that I could set up here for myself, and listen to the differences. Please show me one!
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"
mictester wrote:Not at all. I'd say: "If you have an opinion on the "sound" of particular capacitors, SHOW ME!"
I'd be fascinated to see a definitive experiment that I could set up here for myself, and listen to the differences. Please show me one!
I disagree completely. If someone disputes an opinion that someone else has, then the burden of proof is on them to backup their dispute. Afterall you did say that it was "an entirely demonstrable fact". You can't say "I disagree with your opinion and unless you prove it scientifically to my satisfaction then I'm right", because then the person can just say "but who cares about your satisfaction".
But,the fact of the matter is,the type of capacitor used in a circuit will not have any perceivable effect on tonal quality,as an electrical engineer,you should be aware that a capacitor is simply two conductors separated by an insulator of some kind,if it has any effect it will at frequencies too high for Humans to hear,or any effect will be swamped by the noise floor of a circuit...
Genius is not all about 99% perspiration, and 1% inspiration - sometimes the solution is staring you right in the face.-Frequencycentral.
DrNomis wrote:But,the fact of the matter is,the type of capacitor used in a circuit will not have any perceivable effect on tonal quality,as an electrical engineer,you should be aware that a capacitor is simply two conductors separated by an insulator of some kind,if it has any effect it will at frequencies too high for Humans to hear,or any effect will be swamped by the noise floor of a circuit...
No that isn't the fact of the matter at all, that's your opinion. The reality is that there are a lot of non-linearities about capacitors which seem to be ignored by some as irrelevant, and they could cause differences. This seems to be the main problem, some people perceiving their opinions as de facto.
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
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IvIark wrote:I do it because I like the sound of the effects.
and here's the rub... like mictester, I don't hear the difference, but others do.. until science can build a tool that can emulate the human ear and how the brain interprets the signals sent by it then the idea of tone changes can neither be proven, nor disproven.
so it comes down to individuality... some can hear it, some cant. those that can probably feel sorry for those that cant, and I know for sure I (and more importantly my bank account) feels sorry for those who can.
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Ronsonic wrote:...the lower the stakes the more vicious the combat.
DrNomis wrote:But,the fact of the matter is,the type of capacitor used in a circuit will not have any perceivable effect on tonal quality,as an electrical engineer,you should be aware that a capacitor is simply two conductors separated by an insulator of some kind,if it has any effect it will at frequencies too high for Humans to hear,or any effect will be swamped by the noise floor of a circuit...
No that isn't the fact of the matter at all, that's your opinion. The reality is that there are a lot of non-linearities about capacitors which seem to be ignored by some as irrelevant, and they could cause differences. This seems to be the main problem, some people perceiving their opinions as de facto.
Yes,capacitors exhibit non-linearities,but the non-linearities only happen with high signal voltages,as per the "sound of capacitors" article,the signal levels were something like 70V Peak-To-Peak with a DC bias,the typical signal levels in stompboxes would only be a small fraction of that,and therefore any non-linearity signal distortion would be inaudible,or buried in the noise floor,the human ear actually generates it's own distortion too,but it is mostly second harmonic in nature,so I would imagine that the ears distortion would mask the non-linearity distortion of capacitors too,the non-linearity distortion of capacitors can also be masked by the non-linearity distortion from active devices too....
Genius is not all about 99% perspiration, and 1% inspiration - sometimes the solution is staring you right in the face.-Frequencycentral.
rocklander wrote:and here's the rub... like mictester, I don't hear the difference, but others do.. until science can build a tool that can emulate the human ear and how the brain interprets the signals sent by it then the idea of tone changes can neither be proven, nor disproven.
so it comes down to individuality... some can hear it, some cant. those that can probably feel sorry for those that cant, and I know for sure I (and more importantly my bank account) feels sorry for those who can.
Definitely, I agree with that 100%. Like I said earlier though, it's not that I even think expensive mojo caps are necessarily the best, I use Panasonic ECQ-B caps more than anything which I get for maybe 5p each, and the most I've ever paid for any cap is probably about 30p. Not exactly bank busting stuff.
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
DrNomis wrote:Yes,capacitors exhibit non-linearities,but the non-linearities only happen with high signal voltages,as per the "sound of capacitors" article,the signal levels were something like 70V Peak-To-Peak with a DC bias,the typical signal levels in stompboxes would only be a small fraction of that,and therefore any non-linearity signal distortion would be inaudible,or buried in the noise floor,the human ear actually generates it's own distortion too,but it is mostly second harmonic in nature,so I would imagine that the ears distortion would mask the non-linearity distortion of capacitors too,the non-linearity distortion of capacitors can also be masked by the non-linearity distortion from active devices too....
You can imagine what you like, but that doesn't mean it's true. The sound of capacitors site that you're talking about is only measuring capacitor distortion. What about other non-linearities?
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
DrNomis wrote:Yes,capacitors exhibit non-linearities,but the non-linearities only happen with high signal voltages,as per the "sound of capacitors" article,the signal levels were something like 70V Peak-To-Peak with a DC bias,the typical signal levels in stompboxes would only be a small fraction of that,and therefore any non-linearity signal distortion would be inaudible,or buried in the noise floor,the human ear actually generates it's own distortion too,but it is mostly second harmonic in nature,so I would imagine that the ears distortion would mask the non-linearity distortion of capacitors too,the non-linearity distortion of capacitors can also be masked by the non-linearity distortion from active devices too....
You can imagine what you like, but that doesn't mean it's true. The sound of capacitors site that you're talking about is only measuring capacitor distortion. What about other non-linearities?
I did mention other non-linearities,active devices....
Genius is not all about 99% perspiration, and 1% inspiration - sometimes the solution is staring you right in the face.-Frequencycentral.
DrNomis wrote:I did mention other non-linearities,active devices....
You used the sound of a capacitor site as a reference for why capacitors can't sound different, where have you mentioned anything about other non-linearities? Anyway it's all pretty much moot, this has been discussed to death in the appropriate thread and my opinion on it hasn't changed since then.
"If anyone is a 'genius' for putting jacks in such a pedal in the only spot where they could physically fit, then I assume I too am a genius for correctly inserting my legs into my pants this morning." - candletears7 - TGP
If all the energy put into online discussions about the non-ideal behavior of capacitors was put into actually measuring or testing them, there would be sufficient evidence to convince anyone currently on the fence.
And I think pages 2-6 of this thread ought to go to the Big Catfight.
rocklander wrote:hairsplitting and semantics aren't exactly the same thing though.. we may need two contests for that.
earthtonesaudio wrote:If all the energy put into online discussions about the non-ideal behavior of capacitors was put into actually measuring or testing them, there would be sufficient evidence to convince anyone currently on the fence.
And I think pages 2-6 of this thread ought to go to the Big Catfight.
You're right.. and I committed to do a cap test a while back.
I have nearly everything I need except a couple of caps that needed to come from Mouser, and I was waiting until I needed some other parts as the postage to Australia gets up there a bit.
I also agree that plenty of this thread needs moving which I'll do this evening if no-one does it in the mean time.
culturejam wrote: We are equal opportunity exposure artists.
I'll let you take care of that. I'm busy adding dashes into topic titles.
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