freestompboxes.org

Hi,

i just recently decided i want to sell my 30watt tube amp, because it's too big for the apartment (and neighbours), and as I'm currently not playing in a band, i don't really play it anyway. For home use i use a cheap 5f1 champ clone with an 6L6 (10watts) and a 10inch speaker, which sounds good to me. when i need overdrive i mostly use pedals because the little amp is still too loud to dime at home.

Now i was wondering, instead of the big amp i could get another one of the small champs (they're dirt cheap) and use them in stereo if i have a gig. Would they be able to compete with, say, a 5e3 tweed deluxe volumewise? I think 15-20watts would be ideal but i can't afford a 5e3 and i only use the champ at 9oclock at home. A stereo setup would also open up so many possibilities to combine dirt boxes etc. And they are light, i could just take one to small jam sessions and take both to gigs, etc.

I would think two 10watt champs combined, which would basically form a 20watt 210 unit would be louder than a tweed deluxe or deluxe reverb because of the extra speaker area or am I mistaken?

cheers

I don't work for this chap ,,,but you can have *ANY* SPL you desire if you implement the concept of *Re-Amplification*.

Just Google Guytron GT100,,, I am sure you will eventually catch on.

I'm quite sure if you heard my setup,,, which is still not *All Valve* like the Guytron it would impress even the most discerning ears,,,, winky winky.

Right now My wife is is in the next room watching her favorite show and I'm playing flat out with EVH type lead guitar in the gararge at subdued SPL.

On Sundays i go to the venue and all I have to do is turn one Knob and the SPL changes to a much higher volume level.

Your problem is you don't quite understand what is going on????

Phil.

i actually just wanted to know if two 10 watt tube amps with 10inch speakers could match up to a deluxe reverb size amp.

i didn't understand half of what you were saying are you talking about an attenuator?

Sorry if I'm going too fast chum,
2x10 Watts is Not really going to keep up in a live gig if that is what you wish to know.

You need 30/ 40 odd watts in a live gig,, add drums and you need 50 to 100Watts,,depending how loud your drummer is?

Depends a fair bit on music style you wish to play and how good the rest of the players are at controlling their levels.

Speakers Also play a big roll in live venues.
in really big gigs you need at least 2 Quad boxes or a damn good sound teck to mike it all up.

The Guytron GT 100 (or similar concepts) will allow you to play at home as well as big Venue's while delivering much the same sonic tonal signature.
No it's not really an attenuator,, it is two separate Amps,,one to get the OD,,,, the second sets the Absolute Volume that you need to play at.
*Guytron is the the missing bit of the Attenuator concept.*

Just pick the SPL you wish to work with. (SPL means Sound Pressure Level measured in dB. Some call this speaker sensitivity)
Some speakers have really high SPL ratings and they can help lower wattage Amps to sound louder than they really are
but be careful as it can alter the tonal signature of the said Amp.

You are correct in thinking that two Amps of the same power will indeed be a bigger sound
but most will bork at having to carry 2 or more amps around.

IME,, tiss far better to use a small Amp and Boost it (ReAmp) in a similar way that Guytron does.
you can cover all venues,, except maybe a large concert.
Phil.

thanks for the info mate, but you still didn't answer my question

Seiche wrote:if two 10 watt tube amps with 10inch speakers could match up to a deluxe reverb size amp?

Seiche wrote:thanks for the info mate, but you still didn't answer my question

Seiche wrote:if two 10 watt tube amps with 10inch speakers could match up to a deluxe reverb size amp?

The "Deluxe Reverb" that I have here at the moment is rated at 80 Watts (pair of KT88s loafing along in the output), and is MUCH louder than my 20 Watt "Cube" amp, so the basic answer is "No".

mictester wrote:

Seiche wrote:thanks for the info mate, but you still didn't answer my question

Seiche wrote:if two 10 watt tube amps with 10inch speakers could match up to a deluxe reverb size amp?

The "Deluxe Reverb" that I have here at the moment is rated at 80 Watts (pair of KT88s loafing along in the output), and is MUCH louder than my 20 Watt "Cube" amp, so the basic answer is "No".

with "deluxe reverb size amp" i don't necessarily mean geometrical size. but nice try.

Seiche wrote:i actually just wanted to know if two 10 watt tube amps with 10inch speakers could match up to a deluxe reverb size amp.

They would be roughly equivalent to a Deluxe Reverb kind of amp in output, if the 10" speakers are fairly efficient. The older Deluxe Reverbs and reissues have a 12" speaker which is efficient enough to make the amp surprisingly loud for a 22 watt output.

You have the possibility of some interesting, "complex" overtones when driving the amps hard as the two power amps and their individual speakers overdrive in subtly different ways.

Google Gibson GA-79RTV for info on a famous vintage guitar amp that uses stereo 2xEL84 power amps to drive 2 x 10" speakers.

Two 10W amps will indeed be roughly equivalent to a 20W amp, i.e. just 3dB louder.
But having two separate speakers, and two different signal paths gives the opportunity to have a (geometrically) broader sound, and to use stereo effects for more sonic presence without being actually louder.
Also watch speaker efficiency, its impact on loudness is as relevant as output power !

I have a Marshall Valvestate 8240 (2x40W on 12" Celestions), of which i'm used to say :
"It's the same overall power as the 8080, but it moves twice as much air".
Which is not completely true, but sounds cool anyway.

blackbunny wrote:You have the possibility of some interesting, "complex" overtones when driving the amps hard as the two power amps and their individual speakers overdrive in subtly different ways.

Google Gibson GA-79RTV for info on a famous vintage guitar amp that uses stereo 2xEL84 power amps to drive 2 x 10" speakers.

yeah that's what i thought, so many possibilities
man that gibson is one ugly mofo. but i have also thought about putting the two amps in an angle to spread out the noise, like the gibson does (at a fixed angle in one enclosure).

JiM wrote:use stereo effects for more sonic presence without being actually louder

I was thinking that if i use an A/B/Y box then i could not use stereo effects that pan from one amp to the other right? i would have to use the A and B outputs of that certain stereo box, no?

JiM wrote: I have a Marshall Valvestate 8240 (2x40W on 12" Celestions), of which i'm used to say :
"It's the same overall power as the 8080, but it moves twice as much air".
Which is not completely true, but sounds cool anyway.

Yeah i used to own the 8080 (before i got a tube amp) and i kinda liked it, but kinda not. I always thought my bandmates 8240 sounded way way better i guess is grass is always greener on the other side/meadow/whatever.

I'm another fan of the 8240 (AKA the S80). I have one in my workshop for an overhaul and it sounds so good that I'm going to try and buy it.
Definitely the best sounding Valvestate amp, although the later Valvestate VS265 2 x 65 watt combo sounds pretty good too. The built-in Marshall stereo chorus circuit sounds great in both models.

I think that a large part of the "goodness" is due to the stereo power amps driving two speakers, which gives the sound more "dimension" than a mono amp.

You can use this to advantage with stereo effects inserts etc., as JiM said.

and they're rather cheap as well

I've heard tons of Marshall valve states. all the kids come in with them. it's like "my first half stack". I have yet to hear one that doesn't sound terrible- usually extremely brittle sounding with tons of high end hash. honestly, some of the worst guitar tones I've ever heard have come out of those amps. granted, it could be chalked up to operator error.

regarding the Deluxe, I have seen guys come in and play gigs with them in our 500 cap venue as well, and they get by. usually any place large enough to mic up your amp is going to have monitors, so you can always have your guitar run back to you. that said, champs are pretty small. two of them? still pretty small. but you absolutely don't need a 50-100w amp to play a large venue- it will have a monitor system. full stacks are only absolutely needed in an arena. now, if you plan on being in some ear crushing doom metal band- disregard everything I've just said, and do the opposite.

if you want a great tube amp on the cheap, pick up a Bogen CHB-35 or CHB-50 on eBay. it's a tube PA head from the mid 60's. they can be had for around 100-150$ bucks and sound great!

RnFR wrote: champs are pretty small. two of them? still pretty small.

like i said, they have 10inch speakers and 6L6s yielding 10 Watts each. So effectivly it's like a deluxe reverb with a 210 konfig (like a half power vibrolux, maybe?).
Still pretty small for arenas of course, but i'm happy when i get a gig in a living room haha.

10-inch speakers, 10 Watts- not enough info to answer your original question. Phatt implied it correctly- SPL is your main concern, not amp wattage, not size of the speaker, not the number of speakers. Those other issues are components, that along with speaker sensitivity/efficiency, will influence your overall loudness or SPLs. Amp wattage, speaker size, etc do not individually determine overall loudness. Cab size/shape influences it too. It all works together.

The answer is complex and depends on many variables. I agree with the comments that with a decent p.a. and monitoring, there's not much concern. If you like the sound of your amp and have a decent monitor/p.a.- mic it up and you're done.

DougH wrote:Cab size/shape influences it too.

Okay, this i can work with. I know about speaker sensitivity. But it is really only important to take into account if the two amps compared have different SPLs, no?

Here is how i get it (assuming SPL is constant):
- Deluxe Reverb: 22watts, one 12" speaker
- Tweed Deluxe: 15-18watts, one 12" speaker
- 2x Champ: 2x10=20watts, two 10" speakers, overall speaker area slightly higher, combined cab size a little less.

should be about the same, or (worst case) a little less. If i can gig with the deluxe, i should be able to gig with the 2x10s.

All I can say is give it a try in rehearsal and see if it works for you.