LRE - Fuzz Sound (1968) [schematic]
- LucifersTrip
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Apollo no. 843 Fuzz King
Melos FS-1 Fuzzder
Mica FT-12 Fuzzder
Mica FT-12 Wailer
Monacor FS-1 Fuzzder
Olson X-78 Fuzz Master: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31287
http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/lre/fuzzsound
The analogguru schematic is 404:
http://analogguru.an.ohost.de/193/schem ... _FT-12.gif
Possibly similar to the Amp of America Fuzz King? viewtopic.php?f=19&t=803
thanx much
- LucifersTrip
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- sinner
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I knew I have it somewhere
- RnFR
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sure that first stage is biased correctly? and the transistors should be PNP not NPN. anyone have AG's schematic?
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- greenskull
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Maybe that 10k resistor should be -9v to collector like the rest of the transistors?RnFR wrote:sure that first stage is biased correctly? and the transistors should be PNP not NPN. anyone have AG's schematic?
fuck smooth tone, fuck eric johnson - Seiche
- RnFR
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it's biased correctly. for some reason, I thought the base had to be more positive like voltage amps. the transistors are wrong, though.
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- LucifersTrip
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yeah...the transistors are wrong on the schematic (symbol reversed), but 2SB175 written at the bottom is correct. They are PNP.
the power supply is also wrong. it's powered by a single AA, 1.5v
the power supply is also wrong. it's powered by a single AA, 1.5v
- LucifersTrip
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Ok, I finally had the time to open up my (nonworking) LRE and take some nice closeup pics. I've built a ton of fuzzes but I haven't had the need to trace anything yet. Please help correct the schematic, if possible. right click and "view image" to see full pic.
Notes:
1) transistor symbols reversed
2) supply is 1.5v (single AA)
3) 10K missing after input cap (same type & marking as 4...brown/black/orange/silver). orange looks light tan
4) 100K on fuzz pot should be 10K (same type & marking as 3). orange looks light tan
5) 4.7K should be 5K
6) 100K on Q3's base doesn't exist
7) looking down from the top, the right lug of the fuzz pot is not connected. with the 2 lugs connected, it measures 1M from center to open lug, 900K from left lug to right lug and 100K from center to left.
8] the volume pot has an on/off switch. there is no power supplied when it's off
9) the input jack is a chord with mono plug. the output jack is mono
10) the pushbutton is SPDT
Please let me know if I missed something or made an error.
thanx
Notes:
1) transistor symbols reversed
2) supply is 1.5v (single AA)
3) 10K missing after input cap (same type & marking as 4...brown/black/orange/silver). orange looks light tan
4) 100K on fuzz pot should be 10K (same type & marking as 3). orange looks light tan
5) 4.7K should be 5K
6) 100K on Q3's base doesn't exist
7) looking down from the top, the right lug of the fuzz pot is not connected. with the 2 lugs connected, it measures 1M from center to open lug, 900K from left lug to right lug and 100K from center to left.
8] the volume pot has an on/off switch. there is no power supplied when it's off
9) the input jack is a chord with mono plug. the output jack is mono
10) the pushbutton is SPDT
Please let me know if I missed something or made an error.
thanx
- LucifersTrip
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correction:
3) & 4) should probably both be 100K. what I saw as orange (light tan) is most likely yellow.
3) & 4) should probably both be 100K. what I saw as orange (light tan) is most likely yellow.
- LucifersTrip
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also, note how close it is to the Fuzz King I mentioned in the first post:
I built the Fuzz King a while ago and it sounds nothing like the LRE sound samples on Youtube. It was much fatter and heavier, closer to a Fuzz Face
I built the Fuzz King a while ago and it sounds nothing like the LRE sound samples on Youtube. It was much fatter and heavier, closer to a Fuzz Face
- LucifersTrip
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any corrections/comments?
- sinner
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here's my corrected layout
- LucifersTrip
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The vol pot is 50K and if you're picky, the 4.7K is 5Ksinner wrote:here's my corrected layout
I honestly never work from layouts (only schematics), but is the view of the pots from the bottom?
If so, it is the left lug of the fuzz pot not connected. Most fuzz = 0k on the pot
Coincidentally, last night I breadboarded one. I will post results later if I have time
- sinner
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Can I use 5k1? Just kidding, I'm not as much picky...LucifersTrip wrote:The vol pot is 50K and if you're picky, the 4.7K is 5Ksinner wrote:here's my corrected layout
I honestly never work from layouts (only schematics), but is the view of the pots from the bottom?
If so, it is the left lug of the fuzz pot not connected. Most fuzz = 0k on the pot
Coincidentally, last night I breadboarded one. I will post results later if I have time
I forgot about the vol pot...
You're right, fuzz pot is backwards, I don't know how I could fuck down as much
Thanks
- LucifersTrip
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- my favorite amplifier: Companion Psychedelic Machine
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Ok...I finished breadboarding and tweaking this thing and it turn out it is (of course) set up similarly to the FZ-1A or Fuzz-a-Tort (same fuzz control)
I won't go through all the details of my tweaking, but simply:
Q1: If you use something leaky or with low gain, the fuzz will be dirtier and lower volume. I actually wound up with a much higher gain one than I would've expected. The lower gain ones simply didn't give me the smoother, saturated fuzz I got from the 2SA221 (hfe 200, leakage 175uA)
Q2: this was the hardest one to choose. If you use a leaky one here, it basically nullifies the fuzz control. I threw a leaky one in here and it was like the fuzz was full all the time. the fuzz control had virtually no effect. I tried all different gains & leakages until I got a good sweep on the fuzz control. I wound up with a 2SB165 (hfe 100, leakage 100uA), but I could not choose Q2 until I had a correct Q3.
Q3: I started with a transistor with leakage ~ 100-200uA. the collector voltage was -1.55v and the fuzz control was useless. I got a semi-gated dirty fuzz and the the fuzz control was only useful in the last 10%. the first 90% was very low volume and dull and the high E was super gated. it wasn't until I threw in the 2SB376 (yes, also my savior for Q3 on the Burns Buzzaround...hfe 70, leakage 300+ uA) that this came to life. Immediately, Q3's collector voltage dropped to -.7, the fuzz was loud, smooth, killer with good sustain & decay and the fuzz control had a good sweep, but was even better after taking the time to choose Q2.
A couple notes...according to Small Bear, I'm right on the money for Q1's emitter voltage, -.6.
SB recommends -1v on Q2's collector. I could go as high as 1.15v, but the best fuzz was somewhere in the -.75v to -.90v range. I set it to -.85v by changing the 10K off of Q2's collector to 5.1K
Once Q2's collector was set to -.85v, I set Q3's collector to ~ 1/2 supply. It actually sounds decent all the way from -.3v to -1.1v, but indeed 1/2 supply was the best.
Everything is killer, except for one flaw. The circuit only works well with a leaky Q3, but with the leakage comes the typical hiss ("shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...") of a leaky transistor. I can cut down on some shhhhhhhhh... with a 200uF cap across Q3 B-C and completely remove it with a 500uF cap, but there is sacrifice to the fuzz quality.
Is it a catch 22 or is there a solution?
final version (so far):
I won't go through all the details of my tweaking, but simply:
Q1: If you use something leaky or with low gain, the fuzz will be dirtier and lower volume. I actually wound up with a much higher gain one than I would've expected. The lower gain ones simply didn't give me the smoother, saturated fuzz I got from the 2SA221 (hfe 200, leakage 175uA)
Q2: this was the hardest one to choose. If you use a leaky one here, it basically nullifies the fuzz control. I threw a leaky one in here and it was like the fuzz was full all the time. the fuzz control had virtually no effect. I tried all different gains & leakages until I got a good sweep on the fuzz control. I wound up with a 2SB165 (hfe 100, leakage 100uA), but I could not choose Q2 until I had a correct Q3.
Q3: I started with a transistor with leakage ~ 100-200uA. the collector voltage was -1.55v and the fuzz control was useless. I got a semi-gated dirty fuzz and the the fuzz control was only useful in the last 10%. the first 90% was very low volume and dull and the high E was super gated. it wasn't until I threw in the 2SB376 (yes, also my savior for Q3 on the Burns Buzzaround...hfe 70, leakage 300+ uA) that this came to life. Immediately, Q3's collector voltage dropped to -.7, the fuzz was loud, smooth, killer with good sustain & decay and the fuzz control had a good sweep, but was even better after taking the time to choose Q2.
A couple notes...according to Small Bear, I'm right on the money for Q1's emitter voltage, -.6.
SB recommends -1v on Q2's collector. I could go as high as 1.15v, but the best fuzz was somewhere in the -.75v to -.90v range. I set it to -.85v by changing the 10K off of Q2's collector to 5.1K
Once Q2's collector was set to -.85v, I set Q3's collector to ~ 1/2 supply. It actually sounds decent all the way from -.3v to -1.1v, but indeed 1/2 supply was the best.
Everything is killer, except for one flaw. The circuit only works well with a leaky Q3, but with the leakage comes the typical hiss ("shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...") of a leaky transistor. I can cut down on some shhhhhhhhh... with a 200uF cap across Q3 B-C and completely remove it with a 500uF cap, but there is sacrifice to the fuzz quality.
Is it a catch 22 or is there a solution?
final version (so far):
- RnFR
- Old Solderhand
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the solution would be to use a non leaky transistor, and add a resistor to bias the transistor without having to use it's own leakage. try adding a 470k from base to collector. adjust the value to taste/leakage. thanks for the work on this!
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- LucifersTrip
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- my favorite amplifier: Companion Psychedelic Machine
- Completed builds: Mosrite Fuzzrite (Si), Mosrite Fuzzrite (Ge)[2], Get Lo-Fi Fuzz, Fuzz Face (Ge) [2], Fuzz Face (Si) [3], Mos-Face, Vox Tone Bender, Kay Tremolo, Os Mutantes Fuzz [2], Psychedelic Fuzz, Smokey Amp, Sunn Buzz, Jen Fuzz, Fancy Fuzzbox, Muff Fuzz (op amp) [2], Buzz Box, Fuzz King, Rangemaster [5], Maestro FZ - 2/3, Ruby Amp, Orpheum Fuzz (Ge) [4], Great Destroyer, Schizo, Carlsbro Suzz, Shin-Ei Companion Fuzz (si), DOD 250 Gray [2], Super Dirt Fuzz, Fuzz Factory, Jordan Boss Tone, Sam Ash Fuzzz Boxx, Heathkit TA-28 Fuzz, Olson New Sound Fuzz, LRE Fuzz Sound, Green Ringer, Vox Super Beatle (Ge), Colorsound One Knob (Ge), Demon Buzzz [2], Demon Wasp v1, Demon Wasp v2, Super Hard-On, Bazz Fuss, Burns Buzzaround [2], Selmer Buzztone, Shin-Ei Companion Fuzz (Ge), Fuzz Face/FY-2 (Ge), Zonk Machine, Univox Squarewave, Demon Fuzzz, Mosrite Fuzzrite BG-500/1000 (Ge), Univox Superfuzz, Marshall Supa Fuzz, Demon Monster, AA Overdrive/ Retro Fuzz, Tone Bender MKII, Psychtar, Jordan Vica Vibe, etc...
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The odd thing is I've made numerous vintage fuzzes that needed leaky transistors to bias and never had that problem.
The problem usually occurs in circuits that need low leakage transistors and you throw a high leak one in there.
Also, I didn't notice any hiss/shhh on any of the sound files online and haven't heard of that problem in the many variants of this. (Remember, the popular FZ-1A is one)
I was trying to keep this stock since I'm doing it in order to troubleshoot the original.
Regardless, I'll try an added resistor out of curiosity.
thanx much
The problem usually occurs in circuits that need low leakage transistors and you throw a high leak one in there.
Also, I didn't notice any hiss/shhh on any of the sound files online and haven't heard of that problem in the many variants of this. (Remember, the popular FZ-1A is one)
I was trying to keep this stock since I'm doing it in order to troubleshoot the original.
Regardless, I'll try an added resistor out of curiosity.
thanx much
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