I'm creating a development platform for DIYers and more.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 22 Jun 2012, 22:24

Hi Devi,

Just finished watching your video clip, it's a cool one please keep them coming, you mentioned something about Synths being made into cartridges that fit into the console, that's a really cool idea, and I thought I would put a link to a website about DIY Synth building here, not sure if you've visited it but it's one of my faves, check it out when you've got time:

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/

rocklander · Post by **rocklander** » 22 Jun 2012, 22:57

RnFR wrote:why not just have flying leads on the pots with headers and have pins in the console to connect them to? that way if another value pot is needed, the seller can have the option of selling them along with the cart, and the DIYer can have a number of them on hand to switch out. if the "idiots" can't unscrew a pot, then they don't have to use that effect.

yep.. why not settle on a pot style (16mm alpha, or whatever) and then have them slot in the same way the cards to (perhaps with a screw like in a connector strip)? they could come with the 100K, but just buy other values to swap in and out.

I have no idea why I'm even commenting cos I can't see me buying one

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 22 Jun 2012, 23:33

RnFR wrote:I like the idea a lot. actually was totally into it until the "100K linear". even with onboard resistors adjusting values, that's still pretty limiting. why not just have flying leads on the pots with headers and have pins in the console to connect them to? that way if another value pot is needed, the seller can have the option of selling them along with the cart, and the DIYer can have a number of them on hand to switch out. if the "idiots" can't unscrew a pot, then they don't have to use that effect.

I haven't had a developer yet complain about the 100k value, plus Ken (the engineer on the project) is in agreement that it's a average enough standard to allow for a variety of usefulness between different kinds of effects designs... it just means people are going to have to put their thinking caps on a bit to massage them to get the kind of taper and circuit manipulation they want out of them.

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 22 Jun 2012, 23:36

rocklander wrote:
RnFR wrote:why not just have flying leads on the pots with headers and have pins in the console to connect them to? that way if another value pot is needed, the seller can have the option of selling them along with the cart, and the DIYer can have a number of them on hand to switch out. if the "idiots" can't unscrew a pot, then they don't have to use that effect.
yep.. why not settle on a pot style (16mm alpha, or whatever) and then have them slot in the same way the cards to (perhaps with a screw like in a connector strip)? they could come with the 100K, but just buy other values to swap in and out.

I have no idea why I'm even commenting cos I can't see me buying one

Once again, we're trying to minimize expenses on the manufacturing of the carts themselves.

DrNomis wrote:Hi Devi,

Just finished watching your video clip, it's a cool one please keep them coming, you mentioned something about Synths being made into cartridges that fit into the console, that's a really cool idea, and I thought I would put a link to a website about DIY Synth building here, not sure if you've visited it but it's one of my faves, check it out when you've got time:

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/

You should post this over at the http://www.consolefx.com forum.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 23 Jun 2012, 00:11

Devi Ever wrote:
rocklander wrote:
RnFR wrote:why not just have flying leads on the pots with headers and have pins in the console to connect them to? that way if another value pot is needed, the seller can have the option of selling them along with the cart, and the DIYer can have a number of them on hand to switch out. if the "idiots" can't unscrew a pot, then they don't have to use that effect.
yep.. why not settle on a pot style (16mm alpha, or whatever) and then have them slot in the same way the cards to (perhaps with a screw like in a connector strip)? they could come with the 100K, but just buy other values to swap in and out.

I have no idea why I'm even commenting cos I can't see me buying one
Once again, we're trying to minimize expenses on the manufacturing of the carts themselves.

DrNomis wrote:Hi Devi,

Just finished watching your video clip, it's a cool one please keep them coming, you mentioned something about Synths being made into cartridges that fit into the console, that's a really cool idea, and I thought I would put a link to a website about DIY Synth building here, not sure if you've visited it but it's one of my faves, check it out when you've got time:

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/
You should post this over at the http://www.consolefx.com forum.

No worries, all sorted Devi.....

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 25 Jun 2012, 13:32

We'll have solid specs available as soon as we hear back from the enclosure manufacturer.

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 25 Jun 2012, 22:03

Realized we should make the carts bigger.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 26 Jun 2012, 06:59

That looks cool Devi, I like the open-ness of the board design because it allows alot of flexibility with regards to the kinds of circuits you can build on the board space, and you only need to use tinned copper wire to join the components together, it kind of reminds me of the boards that Music From Outer Space offer....

Dr Tony Balls · Post by **Dr Tony Balls** » 26 Jun 2012, 13:36

How wide and far apart are the contact strips? If possible, you'd probably do good to make it so you can just pop a hunk of vero in the console.

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 27 Jun 2012, 20:16

EMPRESS EFFECTS IS ON BOARD TO DEVELOP CARTRIDGES!

Empress Effects says : "We haven't done anything really out there with Empress, so I figured the Console would be an interesting place to try something out."

I'm glad developers are getting what this is all about! It's not too late to get in on the kickstarter!!!!

Also, check out what very well might be the final perfboard (for DIYers) layout and cartridge enclosure design.

RnFR · Post by **RnFR** » 27 Jun 2012, 21:09

Devi Ever wrote:
RnFR wrote:I like the idea a lot. actually was totally into it until the "100K linear". even with onboard resistors adjusting values, that's still pretty limiting. why not just have flying leads on the pots with headers and have pins in the console to connect them to? that way if another value pot is needed, the seller can have the option of selling them along with the cart, and the DIYer can have a number of them on hand to switch out. if the "idiots" can't unscrew a pot, then they don't have to use that effect.
I haven't had a developer yet complain about the 100k value, plus Ken (the engineer on the project) is in agreement that it's a average enough standard to allow for a variety of usefulness between different kinds of effects designs... it just means people are going to have to put their thinking caps on a bit to massage them to get the kind of taper and circuit manipulation they want out of them.

so what are you supposed to use when you need a larger value? put the pots in series? limit yourself to a 100k range around the optimal value? I often use gain pots that are larger than 100K in order to get more gain out of multistage discrete fuzzes. what about a high gain op amp distortion? you are goingto be stuck with a limited range of gain control. no low gain and high gain, unless you do indeed wire a number of them together. I could see if there were a switch on board, then you could switch between ranges, but I don't think that is in the plans either? maybe a dpdt on/off/on instead of a pot? or different versions? see, all this ould be remedied with the headers.
i understand that you have traditionally greatly limited yourself to the components that you use, but I do t see why you would want to impose this on everybody else when it would be very simple to connect the pots to the board with small 3 pin header connectors. the male side would be on the board, and the female side could be on pot leads. and just a shot in the dark here, but are you sure that everybody actually knows this about the pots? I'm sorry, but if you are planning on making what is going to be an industry standard design, I think that you should really take this into consideration. i would think that if this design is going to last well into the future, you would not want it to be limited to lnly using certain values. it would not make anything more complex, just add a couple bucks more in parts, and actually probably add to the reliability.

JiM · Post by **JiM** » 27 Jun 2012, 22:50

Dr Tony Balls wrote:How wide and far apart are the contact strips? If possible, you'd probably do good to make it so you can just pop a hunk of vero in the console.

Exactly what i was thinking about.That would really make it DIY-friendly.

About the pinout : No provision for (pseudo-)stereo effects, side chain, or expression pedal input ? (the latter may replace one of the pots). There is no shame in adding a couple of "reserved" pins for later upgrades. Much better than releasing an incompatible version 2.0 in a few years or months.
I would definitely like to have a couple more ground pins, for shielding purpose.
At least one switch would be useful also.
One of the pots will obviously act as a volume, or maybe a dry/wet mix, this could be more or less hardwired.
We talked about being able to fit the module in only one direction, according to the drawings this assumes the use of the enclosure. Most vero prototypes won't have it. It's best to have a key or a notch or something foolproof directly at the connector.

RnFR wrote:I'm sorry, but if you are planning on making what is going to be an industry standard design, I think that you should really take this into consideration.

I fully agree. Developping one specific modular system is easy, compared to developping a future-proof standard. Don't gem me wrong : i like the idea, and i think it's worth doing well. Therefore, it's worth taking the time (and peer-reviews) to design a really flexible interface, which will enable creative circuit design.

rocklander · Post by **rocklander** » 27 Jun 2012, 23:08

1M pots with header style sockets exposed at the top beside each pot pin would mean that a simple addition of a resistor to those points (pushed into the socket) to adjust not only values, but taper too, no?

RnFR · Post by **RnFR** » 27 Jun 2012, 23:31

jim, that's my main point. if this is going to be done and truly become something of a new standard in effects design, this kind of limitation is absolutely unacceptable. you are basically relegating your design to be of limited use, which will NEVER become more than a secondary platform. if you do it, you should do it right, or else honestly, someone else probably will- expanding on your idea and making it fully functional and taking over your market. this is some free advice that I hope you take to heart. if you are leaving little things like this out, and still keeping it open source, you are basically inviting someone to do it better- and do it very easily- after you have done all the hard work. i guess, to put it bluntly, I'm just saying you are never going to have a new industry standard interface if you force builders to use certain pot values. it will be nothing more than a (very cool and innovative) gimmick. that sounds harsh, but I REALLY think it would be a damn shame to go all this far, and then half ass it on the controls. also, that board real estate is going to be very important. those 5-10 resistors needed to adjust the(less than 100k) pots, could easily be enough space for extending an IC to a quad, or a whole 'nother transistor stage, opto, charge pump, etc, etc, etc. on top of all this, those 3 pins could connect to a switch as well, extending the possibilities even further.

rocklander wrote:1M pots with header style sockets exposed at the top beside each pot pin would mean that a simple addition of a resistor to those points (pushed into the socket) to adjust not only values, but taper too, no?

well rocky, I think using 1M pots would be the absolute minimum solution. I still think easily interchangeable pots would be
the most flexible, reliable, and idiot proof way to go. I wouldn't want to trust guitarists with resistors and shitty sockets that can get stretched out over time. with the headers, Devi could still go with the 100k if she must(I'm guessing it's because she's already got heaps of them) and if the larger pots are needed, or if there isn't room for the limiting resistors, the pots could be switched out.

thinking about this even further- 1M pots and SMD resistors might also be a very logical way to go.

culturejam · Post by **culturejam** » 27 Jun 2012, 23:44

I have a solution for the 100K pot issue:

Everybody just make Muffs and Rats.

Don't laugh, half the boutique industry is Muffs and Rats.

Okay, you can laugh.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 28 Jun 2012, 00:25

You could quite easily mod some Op Amp circuits to work with the 100K pots, if one 100k pot (connected to say pins 1 and 2 of a TLO72) is being used to set the gain of the op-amp you just need to tweak the value of a fixed resistor that's connected to pin 2 to get the amount of gain needed.....where there's a will, there's a way.....

Devi Ever · Post by **Devi Ever** » 28 Jun 2012, 00:31

I've spoken with a multitude of respected real world developers who all have no problem designing around the 100k linear standard... and we're not just talking "muffs and rats" here.

It's absolutely your prerogative to believe that there aren't an amazing multitude of people who can design all manner of effects around that kind of standard, but the truth of the matter is that there are, and they're all excited about the format.

... and obviously you, and anyone else out there are welcome to create your own cartridge-based standard.

Competition does wonders for innovation, and that's one of the things I love about the pedal biz... it's kinda like the fashion industry in the sense that the only thing you can "protect" is your trademarks... and beyond that it's a free-for-all in terms of design.

I say, if you feel passionate that there should be a different kind of standard, then get together with the other people here, and over at DIY stompboxes who are all crying for a "peer reviewed" platform and make it happen....

... but I have a lot of respect for the peers I am working with to make the Console platform something really amazing, and they feel the same way I do about where we are headed... so... wish us luck with our standard, and feel free to venture off on your own.

DrNomis wrote:You could quite easily mod some Op Amp circuits to work with the 100K pots, if one 100k pot (connected to say pins 1 and 2 of a TLO72) is being used to set the gain of the op-amp you just need to tweak the value of a fixed resistor that's connected to pin 2 to get the amount of gain needed.....where there's a will, there's a way.....

This guy knows what's up.

juanro · Post by **juanro** » 28 Jun 2012, 01:12

I think that making the "controls" also removable (as a sub-unit) would be a great advantage, say, the block with the 3 potentiometers could pop out of the "main" unit, and be replaced with some other 3 pots block of different values, or one block with 2 pots and two switches... (connected to ground and two of the missing pot contacts) you get the idea. So the unit could come with the "standar 3 100K lin" pot block but you can replace it.
Does this makes sense?
Regards,
Juanro

culturejam · Post by **culturejam** » 28 Jun 2012, 02:47

Devi Ever wrote:and we're not just talking "muffs and rats" here.

I was trying to be funny.

DrNomis wrote:You could quite easily mod some Op Amp circuits to work with the 100K pots, if one 100k pot (connected to say pins 1 and 2 of a TLO72) is being used to set the gain of the op-amp you just need to tweak the value of a fixed resistor that's connected to pin 2 to get the amount of gain needed.

Sure, that's used all the time to set the minimum gain of an amplifier (and it also tweaks the max gain as well). The "problem" is that the range that can be manipulated is set to 100K.

So if you want a low to low-medium gain amplifier, you're good. Or if you want a medium to medium-high gain amp, you're good. Or super-metal to ultra-metal amp, you're good. But if you want a range from low-medium to super-metal, you're fucked. I'm thinking something like a range of 200K to maybe 800K in the feedback loop. How do you do that with a 100K pot and a resistor?

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying I'm too ignorant to figure it out.

And I really want to see an example circuit that can do highly variable resistance ranges with a 100K pot and a resistor (or two). Maybe the pot could be used with a cap for AC path to ground? Seriously, I'm jazzed to see how this is going to work. If I could find a way to do *anything* with just 100K linear pots, I'd jump all over it. The simplicity of that would rock.

juanro · Post by **juanro** » 28 Jun 2012, 03:04

culturejam wrote:I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying I'm too ignorant to figure it out.

Pluuuzeeee don't think I'm trying to enlighten you or something like that.

But.

It's not the same "resistance range" that "gain range", ie:

Suppose you have the usual non-inverting configuration, like... this:

Gain in that circuit (nevermind frequency or the diodes, for a moment) is 1 + (R3/R2)
R3 is your pot, ie: 100K.
Minimum gain is 1 (1 + (0:R3 / R2 whatever the value, as long as not-0)
Now varying R2 you can get whatever maximum gain you want, up to the open loop gain of the opamp of course. With lower values of R2 the relation R3/R2 being R3 the full 100K is going up.
Let say you want a maxim gain of 100 (I'm talking 100 times the voltage, not dB) so 100 = 1 + (100K / R2), R2=100K/99.
That would be a bit over 1K, make it 1K wich gives max gain = 101 and you're done.
With that value and your desired corner frequency you can set the value for the cap between R2 and ground, and so on.

All this doesn't mean that I think that having different pot values (or arrangement, or switches) would not be cool, anyway.

Juanro