JHS - Angry Charlie - sound bad after change good parts

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 14 Jun 2012, 16:09

hi

i bought JHS angry charlies pedal. i love it. so i replace the original parts with more better parts.

i change

1. all Epcos cap to nichicon FW. this is 100% sound better. i compare it side by side.

2. change all evox cap to wima (i haven't side by side to compare)

3. change all metal film resistor to japanese takman metal film resistor.

i compare it with my friend no modded angry charlies. sound bad than original much too much. less bass, sound too flat.
but i guess problem come from my solder skill. i use WBT solder. but i haven't remove old solder and add new solder of DC plug, just melt the old solder and stick the wire.

my question is is evox cap sound better than wima in distortion pedal?

will good resistor (Hifi grade) sound better in guitar pedal?

what brand of solder i should use for pedal? is WBT ok?

thank

original

now

soulsonic · Post by **soulsonic** » 14 Jun 2012, 16:49

I found that most often biggest difference in sound will come from changing type of electrolytic cap. This type of cap usually has the most non-linear characteristic. Therefore, slight changes in type will make a difference. My experience that the Nichicon FW and Muse types are very much superior in most types of audio circuits, especially when used for coupling. I have also good experiences with different Elna types, like Cerafine and Silmic.
Regarding Wima caps, I have found that it is mostly the high voltage type that sound superior, and the low-voltage ones usually are not as good. The Epcos caps are actually good sounding as they are. Of the small low voltage caps, everyone seems to agree that the yellow Kemet ones sounded the best.
I have not experienced any dramatic differences from changing resistor types, though I prefer to use high quality metal film whenever possible because of better reliability over time.
With solder, I have found that any good quality will sound good. If a solder results in bad sound, it is because it made poor joints. Most lead-free solder requires extra heat and different soldering technique to achieve a good joint, so, for personal use, I would avoid lead-free solder. I personally like to use Qualitek Tin/Lead/Silver alloy. It is inexpensive and makes beautiful perfect joints every time.

Dirk_Hendrik · Post by **Dirk_Hendrik** » 14 Jun 2012, 17:02

WTB solder sounds awfull. That must be the reason!!

Seriously, if there's a dramatic change in your tonal character it's something different and you should find out what's wrong. Change of these components should cause minor changes and not per definition better. Your solder should have 0 influence in the sound. Differentiating between solder used for sound is something some hard core boohteekers will advertize with (pure mojo) but believing this makes an audible change is, IMHO, the biggest bullocks one can think of.

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 14 Jun 2012, 17:25

hi

i am newbie here.

before i change the cap to nichicon FW. i compare it. i try original epcos, panasonic FC, elna cerafine, Blackgate PK, Sanyo . everyone is better than epcos for sure. but i like nichicon more.

as the wima, i really don't know evox or wima better. so i maybe roll back to evox and try.

but resistor, i believe high quality resistor should sound better. have anyone try to compare and let me know more detail?

last, WBT solder is not good? i agree. i try most of solder and result of Goot< WBT< Furutech < Mundorf. and i buy some cardas solder, will report later. or do you have any good solder to recommend to me?

and i find out my angry charlies volume is lower than original one 20% even both setting is the same. so i guess this should be the very bad solder join on DC plug.

also, please see the photo, one ceramic cap is solder very bad also. because i plan to test it with silver mica, so i just solder it careless. i just know good solder will affact sound too much. i just try it in custom solder vovox cable. bad solder will make a good cable sound like rubbish cable.

last, do anyone can tell me will silver mica sound better than ceramic cap. or they are different
thank

Manfred · Post by **Manfred** » 15 Jun 2012, 05:19

hi

did you excerpt the schematic?

soulsonic · Post by **soulsonic** » 15 Jun 2012, 05:21

My guess is that it is a Crunch Box.

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 15 Jun 2012, 05:30

hi

no , i don't have schematic. and it should be crunch box. because JHS sweet tea, it is combine ts808 and this angry charlies.

i hope someone can help me.

wima or evox , which one is better for pedal effect?

upgrade the high grade resistor will sound better?

J0K3RX · Post by **J0K3RX** » 15 Jun 2012, 05:52

1st question, why did you do this?
2nd question, did you change the LM833 chip? looks different in the 2nd picture.
3rd question did you change the LED diodes also?

The components that were in the pedal to begin with were not that bad so you are probably with the human ear not going to hear a difference... If you are going to change ALL of the parts out I would do a couple at a time and test so if one is not right you will know pretty much which one it is. Now you have 20 some odd parts and you don't know which one or ones are causing the problem...

BTW - lead-free solder is CRAP!!!

Here's a little heads up for you...
Angry Charlie is part for part 100% an MI Audio Crunch Box clone...!
Sweet Tea is 100% a Crunch Box and a Tube Screamer in one box!
Charlie Brown is 100% a BSIAB

Pretty much all of the JHS pedals are copies of some other pedal with the exception of the Panther...

J0K3RX · Post by **J0K3RX** » 15 Jun 2012, 06:10

Another thing is that the resistors are probably not your problem unless you have got the values wrong... Make sure all of the resistors are the right values and in the right places, easy to get 1 or 2 swapped around.
If you swapped the LM833 put it back in. If all of that is in check then start by putting the caps back in a couple at a time until it sounds right again. WIMA are real good caps but who knows.. the blue caps are good also!

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 15 Jun 2012, 06:42

hi

thank everyone advice.

i compare my angry charlies and no mod angry charlies. my angry charlies is bad than no mod one.

i guess the problem are follow

1. bad solder. because i just melt the old dc plug solder and stick to the wire. becaues my pedal volume is lower than no mod 20%. i pretty sure this is a reason cause this problem. bad contact.

2. solder problem. i use WBT, i don't know what brand of solder which JHS use. but i never use lead free solder. i hate it. i use lead WBT solder

3. wima cap, it is very good cap. but it may not suitable for this pedal

4. resistor problem. but i think it is impossible. better resistor should be lower noise, not affact the sound , right?

answer of question

1. because i want my angry charlies sound better. so i plan to use better cap and resistor. i believe better cap will sound better. i did it with eventide time factor, voodoo lab power pedal , TS808 with good result. also, i compare my nichicon FW with orioginal epcos. nichicon better 10x time.

2. both opamp is LM833. i try to use other opamp. but i like LM833 more. i try opa2111 , opa2604 , opa2107 , opa2132 , ad8620, ad712, ad823, ad827, lma49720. in fact, ad823 and lma49720 is good for this pedal too. but i use lm833 finally.

3. no, i haven't change LED diodes. i like LED diode.

i compare all electrolytic,aluminium cap before i install. so electrolytic,aluminium will not the problem. the problem should be wima or resistor. or maybe solder

and i pretty sure the resistor value is correct. i use meter to test when pull one resistor and install one resistor.

i really hope to know the problem come from wima or resistor?

deltafred · Post by **deltafred** » 15 Jun 2012, 09:16

Solder does not have a "sound" so as long as you have a good joint that is not high resistance then lead free will sound identical to 60/40 or whatever.

I don't use lead free, bloody awful stuff, but I would not even attempt to re-use it without the application of extra flux. You are just asking for dry/cold joints heating the solder and poking the new component legs in.

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 15 Jun 2012, 10:04

I bought jhs little black buffer too. It have two evox 0.1uf cap. I desolder 1 0.1uf cap for testing . I try Panasonic 0.1uf 50v metal film, wima 0.1uf, evox 0.1uf , yellow color (don't know what brand 0.1uf and bc 0.1uf 63v film cap.

I find out what problem. Wima sound very detail, smooth , treble not too bright. Sound very good. But bass decrease. It should very good for hifi or fx effect, but not distortion pedal. As the evox, bass tight, treble too much and not smooth. But I think this is correct for distortion pedal . Very powerful bass response.

Panasonic metal film is same with evox. But it is a upgrade version.

The yellow one sound awful. Bass and treble bad with all other cap.

Bc cap is fine better than yellow . But I beleive wima better . But wima roll off bass so serious, bc will not too serious if compare to wima

Will upload photo soon.

And I order Panasonic metal film for my angry charlies

marsens · Post by **marsens** » 15 Jun 2012, 11:19

In my experience, better caps not always better solution, that also apply to resistor, many times carbon better than metal.
You only have to know where to place them. I give you some clue, carbon or metal film VS paralel or series in the direction of audio signal, and you must do trick to decrease electrolytic caps ESR.

marsens · Post by **marsens** » 15 Jun 2012, 11:24

oh yeah, I forgot to tell you beware of multilayer-constructed caps for added dryness to the sound and wild high-freq, that also based on my experience.

Post by **The G** » 15 Jun 2012, 12:14

kwm488 wrote:[...] Wima sound very detail, smooth , treble not too bright. Sound very good. But bass decrease. It should very good for hifi or fx effect, but not distortion pedal. As the evox, bass tight, treble too much and not smooth. But I think this is correct for distortion pedal . Very powerful bass response.

Panasonic metal film is same with evox. But it is a upgrade version.

The yellow one sound awful. Bass and treble bad with all other cap.

Bc cap is fine better than yellow . But I beleive wima better . But wima roll off bass so serious, bc will not too serious if compare to wima

Will upload photo soon.

And I order Panasonic metal film for my angry charlies

Dude! Are you telling me that an 0.1uF Wima capacitor will roll off bass differently than a 0.1uF Panasonic (or whatever brand) capacitor? Really? Have you tried to measure them with a DMM?

At first I thought I mistakenly clicked on diyaudio.com. But no, I'm still on FSB. I have to watch this to see how it'll evolve.

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 15 Jun 2012, 12:36

Yes. Same 0.1uf wima and other brand brand 0.1uf. Wima bass less than other cap little bit. Or I should say sound like add a compressor , roll off too deep bass and too high treble.

Panasonic metal film cap sound like you hit the metal, sound tight bass and treble. Wima like you hit the wood. Result with soft bass and treble. Sound smooth than metal

kwm488 · Post by **kwm488** » 15 Jun 2012, 12:53

I measure all cap before test. All around 0.1uf.

I am newbie here. I don't know how to build pedal. Everyone is very professional here.

I am guitarist, I custom build amp for myself. I build Marshall and fender amp. I am not hifi person, but I am agree i play guitar like hifi.

Recently, I purchase some expensive guitar cable. Vovox , mogami, evidence audio...,

And I like to mod amp, effect and guitar. I try a lot of cap . If anyone wanna know more, I can share.

My favour cap is blackgate, treble very very clear and smooth. Low noise...

And I can say replace good cap to guitar pedal will sound better.

deltafred · Post by **deltafred** » 15 Jun 2012, 22:29

ggedamed wrote: Dude! Are you telling me that an 0.1uF Wima capacitor will roll off bass differently than a 0.1uF Panasonic (or whatever brand) capacitor? Really? Have you tried to measure them with a DMM?

At first I thought I mistakenly clicked on diyaudio.com. But no, I'm still on FSB. I have to watch this to see how it'll evolve.

I restrained myself from a similar comment, I had it typed up then deleted it. After all what do electronics engineers know about capacitors, resistors and filters.

Dirk_Hendrik · Post by **Dirk_Hendrik** » 16 Jun 2012, 14:02

deltafred wrote:all what do electronics engineers know about capacitors, resistors and filters.

Nothing. When engineers need something they go online and search for the first hit that tells them what they wanted to hear. After that, that's the truth.

Post by **The G** » 16 Jun 2012, 14:19

Dirk_Hendrik wrote:[...] When engineers need something they go online and search for the first hit that tells them what they wanted to hear. After that, that's the truth.

Everybody does this.
I get it, don't search online, listen the inner voices.