Epiphone Valve Junior Bass Mods Questions

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jerrymcdougal
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Post by jerrymcdougal »

I have an Epiphone Valve Junior that I plan to mod for bass, and have a few questions if anyone would be so kind as to lend their expertise.

1.) The stock coupling caps are .022uF. Would replacing them with .1uF's be too much? I've heard .047's work, but I have some Sprague .1's laying around. I'll admit I'm a bit stumped on how to calculate the frequency pass-through for coupling caps. I'd like to pass at least down to 30Hz if possible. (I play a 5 string Bass, Low B is like 31-ish Hz I believe) Correct me if that's a bad idea.
2.) Would placing these new caps parallel with the stock coupling caps and placing them on a switch be not as ideal (sound quality-wise) as replacing the existing coupling caps altogether?
3.) Any other suggestions or advice for modding the VJ for bass?

Other Mods I plan on performing:
It's already got a Hammond 125ESE Output Transformer
I plan on adding 100uF additional filtering
Changing C5 to 1000uF

Schematic:
Image

Layout:
Image

Thanks!

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jerrymcdougal
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Post by jerrymcdougal »

Alright, so last night I made a few mods. They turned out great, but there's more work to be done. The amps plays lower and sounds more full and rich. Hard to believe a little 5 watt amp with my 410 can shake the house so hard. There's definitely too much gain after about noon on the volume, so I need to tame that for sure.

I changed the coupling caps (C1 and C2) from .022uF to .1uF Orange Drops (I only had 600V version, so they are massive)
Changed C5 from 22uF to 1000uF

The previous owner also replaced one of the larger resistors and soldered it in from the top, using the old legs, so I removed all that and did it the right way.

Next Up:
1.) Going to try some negative feedback between R9 and the 4ohm output tap to clean it up a bit and tame the gain. Would like to make this switchable, or on a pot so it can still get nasty with guitar.
2.) Need to pick up a 500v 100uF cap for extra filtering
3.) Going to adjust C3 + R9 as well as C4 +R8 to adjust low freq cutoff point. How should I change these values to lower my cutoff point? Lower them right? Any idea where to start for bass?
4.) After mods are done, I need to check the El84 Anode, and make sure it's not seeing over 315v or so. If so, adjust resistors.
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jerrymcdougal
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Post by jerrymcdougal »

Aha! Found this: http://www.sewatt.com/files/sewatt/Acoustic_Bass.pdf

Looks like I'm getting rid of C3 and C4 all together.

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Post by devastator »

In my opinion if you have intentions to overdrive the amp don't go too low with the coupling cap .
Going to adjust C3 + R9 as well as C4 +R8 to adjust low freq cutoff point. How should I change these values to lower my cutoff point? Lower them right? Any idea where to start for bass?
to know you have to use the famous formula of the frequency corner (F=1/2piRC) , there're calculators on websites that you can find and use (AMZ muzique). You'll see that putting big cap isn't necessary . I can say you the .1uf is unnecessary big here , 0.022uf is large enough. (works the same for the caps with the cathode resistors)

You can also try to reduce the Anode voltage of the EL84 , seems pretty high (that can be calculated too )

Keep in mind also that low frequencies require more power from the power supply in general. But that can color the sound and the behaviour of your amp (sag ) .

Keep in mind ,also , that guitar Output transformer , espcially mass produced ones , can be limited in bandwidth so they may not give good results with bass instruments. But once again , that can add colors to the sound .

the feedback can be a good thing if you want to keep the amp really clean , but it needs some knowledges on how doing it , that's not that simple. you can also make it variable , or even frequency variable but that will become really complex for such a small amp :lol:

For suggestions, I'd make the anode resitor larger as in bass amp (47K) to stay really clean (we can imagine putting a switch to select two kind of biasing). I wouldn't put big caps to keep clear sound , I'd soften the sound, find a simple and good tone knob and finally make the EL84 working good.

I'd be interested if you can say some words once your modifications done about the EL84 with bass.

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Post by jerrymcdougal »

devastator wrote:In my opinion if you have intentions to overdrive the amp don't go too low with the coupling cap .
Going to adjust C3 + R9 as well as C4 +R8 to adjust low freq cutoff point. How should I change these values to lower my cutoff point? Lower them right? Any idea where to start for bass?
to know you have to use the famous formula of the frequency corner (F=1/2piRC) , there're calculators on websites that you can find and use (AMZ muzique). You'll see that putting big cap isn't necessary . I can say you the .1uf is unnecessary big here , 0.022uf is large enough. (works the same for the caps with the cathode resistors)

You can also try to reduce the Anode voltage of the EL84 , seems pretty high (that can be calculated too )

Keep in mind also that low frequencies require more power from the power supply in general. But that can color the sound and the behaviour of your amp (sag ) .

Keep in mind ,also , that guitar Output transformer , espcially mass produced ones , can be limited in bandwidth so they may not give good results with bass instruments. But once again , that can add colors to the sound .

the feedback can be a good thing if you want to keep the amp really clean , but it needs some knowledges on how doing it , that's not that simple. you can also make it variable , or even frequency variable but that will become really complex for such a small amp :lol:

For suggestions, I'd make the anode resitor larger as in bass amp (47K) to stay really clean (we can imagine putting a switch to select two kind of biasing). I wouldn't put big caps to keep clear sound , I'd soften the sound, find a simple and good tone knob and finally make the EL84 working good.

I'd be interested if you can say some words once your modifications done about the EL84 with bass.
Wow, this is great info devastator! Thanks. So far I've performed all the mods on this: http://www.sewatt.com/files/sewatt/Acoustic_Bass.pdf schematic except:

The feedback addition. (If I add this, I'll make it switched. I like the option of lots of gain)
1K/1W Screen Resistor
R14 value change
Increasing C6 and C9 to 100uF (parts on their way)
R10 and R13 adjustments.

I've come across the frequency corner formula you mention. The fact is that besides a few DC Circuits courses at a Tech School during High School, I am self-taught and lack some necessary skills still. It's been a while since High School, so I wasn't sure how to calculate the R and C at that point in the circuit.

I could see how the .1uF coupling caps may be too big. At a certain point the gain gets unusable quickly, possibly because the caps are too big. Just doesn't sound right after a certain point. Up to that point though, it sounds great so far, even without the extra filter caps yet. I'll try smaller coupling caps once the filter caps arrive and I take it apart next.

The amp does use the stock PT, but does have a 15W Hammond 125 ESE OT.

I could just add a sweepable low pass filter in series with the feedback in order to accomplish the frequency-variable feedback right? That sounds like a great idea.



I'll definitely post my thoughts on the mods when done. Maybe even some sound clips if I can find a decent mic to do it justice. Even with the current mods, it sounds really really nice with the Genz Benz 410T-XB. Can't believe what comes out of the little thing. I bought it used for $70! Best money I've ever spent easily. I can't imagine what stiffening the filter caps will do!

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Post by devastator »

I've come across the frequency corner formula you mention. The fact is that besides a few DC Circuits courses at a Tech School during High School, I am self-taught and lack some necessary skills still. It's been a while since High School, so I wasn't sure how to calculate the R and C at that point in the circuit.
you know , tube amps aren't rocket science , formula and maths are just here to put some guidelines but shouldn't be the final decision, your ears have to be !

you can take a first step with the valvewizard's site :

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/gainstage.html (and the rest of the site as well ! )

Instead of R14 i'd change R3 , to 220K for more gain or 47K for less (but if you do so you may change the cathode resistor as well) . Be also carefull to not having the tube over-dissapating if you go with lower resistor than 47K.
I could just add a sweepable low pass filter in series with the feedback in order to accomplish the frequency-variable feedback right? That sounds like a great idea
Yes , you could . You'll increase the feedback of the treble , so the gain of these frequencies will be reduced and the bass/medium won't be affected because of the filter. I had a similar ideas for an EL84 amps based , which sounds really bright and harsh . But that kind of circuit needs a little bit more knowledge to be acheived perfectly (otherwise you can have oscillations and loud noises )

If you wanna play with low pass filter and keep it simple you can replace a resistor by a pot to play with the miller effect of tube as R15 is mentioned (but it will be more efficient with a triode , miller effect is bigger) . For exemple put R6 in pot. shape with a cap at the wipper (calculated with the formula of frequency corner).
Can't believe what comes out of the little thing. I bought it used for $70! Best money I've ever spent easily. I can't imagine what stiffening the filter caps will do!
actually I'm also considering buying one of those for build my ideas , low price and you get a good well covered headshell (I'm not that skilled at tolexing :lol: ) Just have to change the inside and the OT to put my own circuit (and remove the brand name) .

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Post by jerrymcdougal »

Great info man! Thanks!

The larger filter caps came in and whoa, did they make a big difference. I also put the .022uF caps back in, and that helped it be less farty when dimed. This thing just sings. I can't believe it really. Much fuller and warmer tone, with more beef behind it. I dare say I like the tone better than my GK 700RBII.

I get a nice drive from 9am to noon on the volume, after that it starts to grind pretty hard and by 3pm, it breaks up quite a bit, but in a nice fuzzy sounding way.

I think I'll try the feedback method you mentioned. I'll report back.

As far as the case goes, I took the back grill panel and put it on the front. Looks really nice, and you can see the tubes and transformers that way. All black which looks pretty neat too. I can snap some pics if you'd like.

Which OT would you go with? Mine has a Hammond 125ese, but I think something that goes lower would be even better. Great for guitar though.

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Post by .Mike »

jerrymcdougal wrote:As far as the case goes, I took the back grill panel and put it on the front. Looks really nice, and you can see the tubes and transformers that way. All black which looks pretty neat too. I can snap some pics if you'd like.
I did the same thing, but I also flipped the cabinet upside down. Otherwise, I found that the enclosure was getting pretty hot from the heat rising right into it.

Also, have you corrected the bias in your VJr? My EL84 was originally dissipating nearly 14 watts. I added a mains resistor and changed R14, and it now dissipates closer to 11.5 watts.

Mike
My website: America's Debate | My effects site: Just one more build...

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Post by jerrymcdougal »

.Mike wrote:
jerrymcdougal wrote:As far as the case goes, I took the back grill panel and put it on the front. Looks really nice, and you can see the tubes and transformers that way. All black which looks pretty neat too. I can snap some pics if you'd like.
I did the same thing, but I also flipped the cabinet upside down. Otherwise, I found that the enclosure was getting pretty hot from the heat rising right into it.

Also, have you corrected the bias in your VJr? My EL84 was originally dissipating nearly 14 watts. I added a mains resistor and changed R14, and it now dissipates closer to 11.5 watts.

Mike
I haven't yet, but plan to. I can't get the right wattage resistors locally, so I just need to put in a mouser order. I don't play it for hours on end, so I figure it will be OK in the mean time. I left the back cover off completely for additional cooling too.

I wanted to try flipping it too, but it bugged me that the text on the front panel was upside down. I plan on adding some additional controls later, at which point I'll probably etch a custom face plate and then flip at that point.

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