Who is making good quality current production EL34's?

sickman82 · Post by **sickman82** » 04 Dec 2012, 20:04

I need to replace the quad EL34's in my 1959SLP, but before I buy I would rather hear people's opinions on who is making decent reliable ones at the moment?

HotRoxUK have valve sets, I was looking at the JCM800 set since it is the same valve complement. They are all JJ's, both pre/power.

I'm after reliability/durability, over tone. I hear good things about Shuguang valves, and cheap as well. Major valve companies are re-branding them as their own, right?

Any input is appreciated!

phibes · Post by **phibes** » 04 Dec 2012, 22:23

The SED's in there will probably be better than anything else on the market unless you go NOS which really isn't necessary in a reissue Superlead. Ask any Hiwatt guys about Winged "C" and they will give you a thumbs up. They're pretty robust and definitely not cheap so I'd leave them in. They'll last a hell of a lot longer than most JJ's.

sickman82 · Post by **sickman82** » 04 Dec 2012, 22:40

I would love to leave them in, but I checked for microphonics and they're all bad. Two are really bad. The amp itself sounds great though.

I've used 6l6 winged c's in the past, great valves but very pricey. Perhaps a sound investment though (pun not intended), if like you say, they last longer.

phibes · Post by **phibes** » 05 Dec 2012, 06:12

My bad, I figured you meant the pre-amp tubes were microphonic in your other post. Yeah, if your due for a retube winged C's probably aren't worth the extra cash. The JJ set should work fine, that's probably the best bang for your buck. The EH el34's ain't bad either. Marshall's don't stress too much on the tubes so no need to spend crazy dollars for a brand name.

sickman82 · Post by **sickman82** » 05 Dec 2012, 08:25

The preamp valves are fine, they're Marshall 12AX7's. I'm beginning to wonder if this amp has ever seen a different set of valves since leaving the factory in 94. Which is why I want to do a full re-valve on it. The guy I got it from on Monday claimed to have put a new set it about 5 years ago, which could be true.. It's just that these valves that are in there would have shipped with the amp too.

Either way, I'm gonna see if I can get a good price on a quad of Winged C's, if not then I'll go for the set of JJ's from HotRox.

phibes wrote:Marshall's don't stress too much on the tubes so no need to spend crazy dollars for a brand name.

Really? I'd read that these Super Leads go through valves pretty easily? This is my first Marshall, and admittedly my first 'serious' amp, never had anything above 30w in the past, so I'm new to it really.

Jooshtin · Post by **Jooshtin** » 05 Dec 2012, 13:10

I think the originals in those amps were re-branded Svetlanas, or whatever was the cheapest at the time! I've ended up with JJs (also from Hotrox) in my Marshall as they just seem to suit it to my ear, it rocks!

Be sure to bias it correctly - my 9005 had the suicide bias trimmers (if the trimmer gets dirty it will default to no bias voltage) so I added safety resistors but I think your amp is ok so don't panic! I also added speaker safety resistors to save the transformers if a lead gets disconnected (like the old Traynors, also recommended in the Kevin O'Connor books). A 220 or 270r 5w resistor if I remember rightly, I can check if you like...

Dr Tony Balls · Post by **Dr Tony Balls** » 05 Dec 2012, 14:26

1. I would only do a full re-valve if you're getting noticeable problems from the preamp tubes. Those guys should last quite a long time because they have much less current running through em.

2. I used to use JJ for everything that I didnt want to spend a ton of money on. I used them as just like a standard good and average priced tube. However i've heard a lfew stories lately about JJs having questionable reliability and failing way before they should. Saw this in one pair of 6L6s even, where something broke off inside the enveleope and and was jumping around with vibrations and causing sonic issues. I have JJs in my Marshall 1987 clone that have been there for a bit less than three years now, and they've been nothing but great to me. Maybe the reliability issues are true, maybe not....im waiting a bit before I buy more JJs to find that out. In my most recent build (Orange OR80 clone) I put in some Ruby EL34s and i've been happy with them so far.

3. From that hotrox site, the winged C are a pretty good suggestion and you might also consider the TADs. I've heard good things about those.

Post by **azrael** » 05 Dec 2012, 16:39

It'll only go through tube quickly if you have it biased pretty hot. I keep my amps around 65% dissipation, which I find to be a nice balance between saving tubes and running them hot enough to sound good.

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 05 Dec 2012, 17:14

SED Winged-C's are nice, but expensive.

I'm using JJ E34L's now in my Marshall and Marshall-alike. They sound good in a heavy sounding amp, nice bass and like most JJs they are a little dark, which can keep it smooth sounding.

phibes · Post by **phibes** » 05 Dec 2012, 17:36

sickman82 wrote:
phibes wrote:Marshall's don't stress too much on the tubes so no need to spend crazy dollars for a brand name.
Really? I'd read that these Super Leads go through valves pretty easily? This is my first Marshall, and admittedly my first 'serious' amp, never had anything above 30w in the past, so I'm new to it really.

It's not going to push them any harder than most of the other amps on the market. It's a reissue amp so it's set up to run with current production parts. If you bias hot, you'll run through them quicker. A lot of guys like the Winged C's for vintage amps that lack a correct bias supply for new production tubes, that's where the big advantage seems to go with those. Your amp should have plenty of bias on tap so it's probably not worth the extra cash to throw them in. I just suggested leaving them in because they were already in there and I didn't know they were the bad ones.

Like Tony said, I'd avoid a full retube unless it's really needed. If it's sounding good, I'd leave those.

There's been bad some bad reviews on JJ power tubes but I haven't had problems with them. I've arc'd a few bias'ing but that was my fault. Their rectifiers I stay away from but then again, those are the only tubes I buy NOS. All aftermarket rectifiers just seem to be hit or miss though. I'll second the JJ EL34L's like Doug said. I got em in a Sound City 120 / Hiwatt hybrid and they sound how they should. EH EL34's sound good too. I had a quad of those in a vintage Hiwatt Custom 100 and it sounded just as it should, I doubt anyone woulda been able to tell the difference. The PT in that amp was replaced with a newer one so it didn't pay to use NOS or the Winged C's.

I've heard some mixed reviews with the TAD stuff being just marked up re-labels.

Dr Tony Balls · Post by **Dr Tony Balls** » 05 Dec 2012, 17:48

After my original post I started to think about how it might be time to retube my amp, given that its been a while and I play it often. I did some research and the Tung-Sol EL34Bs have tremendous reviews and a pair of them is only about $15 more expensive than a pair of JJs. Might be worth some consideration.

DougH · Post by **DougH** » 05 Dec 2012, 17:49

I blew up an expensive set of SED Winged-C's F-ing around with the bias. Set the bias cold, as cold as it still sounds good, and leave it alone. IME there's not much to be gained tonewise with hot bias in a Marshall type of amp. A Vox AC30 maybe, but not an EL34 amp. IME EL34's sound good over a pretty wide range of acceptable bias points and there's no need to set it real hot and risk burning up your tubes (and maybe taking out the output transformer too).

wyatt · Post by **wyatt** » 05 Dec 2012, 18:04

sickman82 wrote:I would love to leave them in, but I checked for microphonics and they're all bad. Two are really bad. The amp itself sounds great though.

I've used 6l6 winged c's in the past, great valves but very pricey. Perhaps a sound investment though (pun not intended), if like you say, they last longer.

While possible, that doesn't seem remotely probable.

Besides whatever test you are trying, what other symptoms does the amp have...you say it sounds great...no oscillation? no ghost notes? etc.?

If you were saying the tubes were wearing out and performance is irregular...sure.

MoonWatcher · Post by **MoonWatcher** » 06 Dec 2012, 02:01

I had a pair of JJ's in a 2204 for over two years. Very durable - no problems at all.

Since your concern is durability, I would say these would fill the bill. They weren't the best sounding tubes by a long shot, but really tough.

I received the amp with a pair of EH's in it, and they weren't really that bad either, but when I went to rebias, they were super mismatched, so I figured replacement wasn't a big deal. The JJ's were certainly not expensive. I biased them to a little over 70% and just left it there (but periodically check the bias).

I hope the JJ quality of late isn't going downhill, because the 6V6S is the only tube I will put in a Deluxe Reverb, for durability issues. You can bias them incorrectly and they will survive it in most instances. I've had pairs in amps for long periods that are only a few mA unmatched of each other - nothing short of remarkable.

I certainly have nothing against trying the SED's, as that is all I really use for 6L6-based amps. Since they were originally offered as Svetlanas years ago when I first bought some, I've had nothing but perfect experiences with them. But a 6L6 and EL34 are rather different in construction, so I wouldn't want to assume without trying them.

sickman82 · Post by **sickman82** » 06 Dec 2012, 10:16

Wow, loads to catch up on.. forgive me if I miss one or two of you out, I'll try and pick out points that I think are important and comment on them.

Jooshtin wrote:Be sure to bias it correctly

Yeah, I have an old timer amp guy local to me that I have always taken my amps to. I've already planned to have him service it, so I'll give him the new valves at the same time and have him bias it as well. I'll look in to the safety resistors as well, they sound like a pretty useful addition.

Dr Tony Balls wrote: I would only do a full re-valve if you're getting noticeable problems from the preamp tubes. Those guys should last quite a long time because they have much less current running through em.

Would they last 18 years? Can I ask why a few people have now said to avoid a full re-valve? I have no idea if the seller from eBay was telling the truth about the amp having had a re-valve a few years ago, but it is a bit of a coincidence that the valves the amp shipped with are still in there. The pre-amp valves are not microphonic, but surely it would be better to swap them out for new valves in case they are worn out?

azrael wrote:It'll only go through tube quickly if you have it biased pretty hot. I keep my amps around 65% dissipation, which I find to be a nice balance between saving tubes and running them hot enough to sound good.

phibes wrote:It's not going to push them any harder than most of the other amps on the market. It's a reissue amp so it's set up to run with current production parts. If you bias hot, you'll run through them quicker. A lot of guys like the Winged C's for vintage amps that lack a correct bias supply for new production tubes, that's where the big advantage seems to go with those. Your amp should have plenty of bias on tap so it's probably not worth the extra cash to throw them in. I just suggested leaving them in because they were already in there and I didn't know they were the bad ones.

Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me guys. I'll bear that in mind when I go see my amp guy, and mention what you guys have all said about biasing cold-ish etc. The annoying thing is that because I have just emptied my account to buy the amp, I'm going to have to wait another two weeks to buy the valves and have the work done!

Dr Tony Balls wrote: I did some research and the Tung-Sol EL34Bs have tremendous reviews

I'll check them out man, cheers for the heads up.

wyatt wrote:While possible, that doesn't seem remotely probable.

Besides whatever test you are trying, what other symptoms does the amp have...you say it sounds great...no oscillation? no ghost notes? etc.?

If you were saying the tubes were wearing out and performance is irregular...sure.

Well, I carried out the very scientific test of tapping them with a pencil. I had first noticed a thud coming from the speakers when I was trying out different combinations of jumping the channels, when I pulled out the jack I could hear a thud. So I knew straight away what it was, pulled the back panel off and tapped away very gently. The outside two were reasonably quiet thuds, but definitely microphonic. The inner two EL34's though, THUD THUD!

Bear in mind that when I put it in the car on Monday, it had been on for half an hour previously while I was checking it out at the sellers house. Then it spent the best part of six hours riding in the back of the car at 80mph while I legged it home across a distance of 300 miles.. by that time - I set off to pick it up at 08:30, 300 miles and some seriously heavy traffic later I arrived at the guys house at 16:15, then set back off at 16:50 to do it all again, finally arriving home at 22:30 - I had lost all comprehension of what the presumably hundreds of bumps along the journey could do to four insignificant EL34's. All I cared about was getting home! It was painful. I know some of you guys may drive a lot for work or whatever, but I have a five minute walk to my job. The furthest I usually drive is 13 miles in to the city centre. It was gruelling! My eyes were beginning to cross towards the last hour or so, it was pitch black on the motorway, raining heavily.. no fun, what so ever!

MoonWatcher wrote:Since your concern is durability, I would say these would fill the bill. They weren't the best sounding tubes by a long shot, but really tough.

Yeah, I've always used JJ EL84's for that reason.. they sound good enough, and they last a long time. I think I'm going to go for the JJ's.. HotRox offer a 90 day guarantee with them, which is fair enough. I'll wait to hear your reason as to why I should avoid a full re-valve before deciding to buy the full set though. Cheers for all your help so far guys.. gotta love this forum, no bull - just straight up, objective talk

deltafred · Post by **deltafred** » 06 Dec 2012, 11:36

I don't think you need to worry about driving 300 miles with an amp in a car, they are not delicate. Back in the 60's and 70's we all had valve amps, mine travelled 1000s of miles in the back of a very hard sprung van.

As for valve life, IIRC my 100w head (Carlsbro CS100TC) has had about 6 valves replaced during it's working life of countless rehearsals and gigs (1968 - 1998). If memory serves me correctly 2 of the EL34s are original and still going strong. I did however have access to a valve tester at work and always made sure the valves were within spec and that the output valves were biased correctly.

sickman82 · Post by **sickman82** » 06 Dec 2012, 12:08

Should I apply for a partial refund through eBay to pay for the re-valve, if it's unlikely that I damaged them?

deltafred · Post by **deltafred** » 06 Dec 2012, 13:28

sickman82 wrote:

Should I apply for a partial refund through eBay to pay for the re-valve, if it's unlikely that I damaged them?

Difficult one that.

You checked the amp out before you brought it home so I suspect you might struggle to get Ebay to support a claim. If it were a new amp I would have thought that you might have had a better chance but a used amp is just that and subject to fair wear and tear. Depreciated valves would probably be classed as fair wear and tear.

Valves can go microphonic, some are from new, some are worse than others. Is it causing feedback or other problems when you play through it?

biliousfrog · Post by **biliousfrog** » 06 Dec 2012, 15:20

I've only skimmed the thread, just wanted to recommend Watford Valves if you're looking for a replacement in the UK/Europe. The service is great, they test the valves thoroughly and they also do cryo-treated valves if that's your thing. I used to use HotRox but Watford have a better selection and worked out cheaper.

I bought some cryo-JJ's. I can't say that I noticed much difference but my amp doesn't push the output valves much, you might appreciate them more. They are supposed to sound very Mullard NOS-like.

http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.a ... an=&page=2

phibes · Post by **phibes** » 06 Dec 2012, 15:27

sickman82 wrote:
Dr Tony Balls wrote: I would only do a full re-valve if you're getting noticeable problems from the preamp tubes. Those guys should last quite a long time because they have much less current running through em.
Would they last 18 years? Can I ask why a few people have now said to avoid a full re-valve? I have no idea if the seller from eBay was telling the truth about the amp having had a re-valve a few years ago, but it is a bit of a coincidence that the valves the amp shipped with are still in there. The pre-amp valves are not microphonic, but surely it would be better to swap them out for new valves in case they are worn out?

Lets put it this way, my Fender Blackface Bandmaster still has the original preamp tubes running and she was born in the late 60's.

Have you got any opinions from the amp guy at all? I'd just let him pick the valves if he's gonna be working on it. I'm sure he'll have a recommendation and fav to work with.