Word to the wise - EL84 content

Tube or solid-state, this section goes to eleven!
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Dr Tony Balls
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Post by Dr Tony Balls »

These things are utter horse shit:

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Almost two years ago I built a double powered variant of the old Marshall 18 watter (1974) and here and there ever since ive been messing it with because I just couldnt get it to sound good. The clean sounded good but the breakup was bad, and if an amp doesnt breakup well it aint worth shit to me. This thing sounded harsh like tearing paper. I tried so many part changes and other things to fix it that I eventually was running out of possibilities. I thought it could have been crappy tubes, but who wants to spring for a new quad of EL84s on the off chance that they might not fix anything? Well finally about a week ago I had a buddy's Dual Terror in here and I tried using his tubes in my amp and HOLY SHIT....the difference was night and day. And he didnt even have incredible tubes (just JJs). Anyway just wanted to pass this message along. I dont have any experience with other EHX tubes but I can tell you for sure that these are miserable.

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Post by Aharon »

Way back I built a Spitfire clone,it sounded ok with EH tubes but sounded outstanding with Westinghouses....now I'm building an 18w variant but using 6v6...
Also my Spitfire chewed tubes like nothing and I know it sounded good because I had them on the edge,lets see what 6v6s sound like in this circuit.


Aharon

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Post by bajaman »

I agree 100% Tony :wink:
I will NOT use ANY Russian tubes for any of my amplifiers or customer's repairs - I test ALL my tubes before fitting (have an old BK tube tester from the 50s).
I have seen MANY Russian 12AX7 (WA,WB,WC,WXT,WXT+, LP,LP+, etc.)which are lucky to measure 20% emission - some measure considerably less :roll:
These are BRAND NEW tubes straight off the shelf :shock: :shock: :shock:
I have found that the Chinese 12AX7B preamp tubes and the JJ power tubes are the most reliable way to go at the present time.
Be aware too - "Mullard" tubes are also now made in Russia - nothing is sacred anymore!!
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Post by Groovenut »

I have to completely agree with Bajaman on this. i would never use a Russian/Sovtek preamp tube or EL84 in any of my builds or mods/repairs. Too many issues with the new tubes. The big bottle power tubes are still acceptable. JJs and the Chinese 12AX7s are reliable and sound good. The JJ EL84 is about the only way to go. New Sensor tubes are questionable IME.

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Post by Dr Tony Balls »

Yeah im wondering what to go with on the replacement tubes for this. JJs sound okay but ive heard about questionable reliabilty with them lately. Maybe some TADs, but other than that the only good option seems to be NOS.

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Post by bajaman »

The JJ power tubes are probably the best option at this time - although the Groove Tubes JJ sourced tubes are more expensive, they are more reliable, simply because they have been "tested" before shipping out :wink: TAD tubes have a good reputation for this very same reason.
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Post by deltafred »

Thanks for the info.

I recently repaired a Fender Blues Junior (?) that had fried the output tubes (2 x EL84) due to to being biased too hot. After setting the bias to a sensible level I looked at replacement tubes. I went for Groove Tubes JJs because that was what was in originally, glad I did now as the alternative was Sovteks.
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Post by chicago_mike »

I agree with the Chinese 12AX7B

we order these at our repair shop and have always tested okay and sound good. Just dont tell the customer you put a "gooks" tube in your amp. :whappen:

JJ powertubes have always been okay with me. I LOVED their blue glass KT88's. I had 8 of those in a bass power amp once. :horsey:
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Post by allesz »

Hey, happy new year.

I just swapped a pair of almost new jj el84 in a combo because they became microphonic. The new sovtek el84 seems more sturdy in this compartment.

Regarding tone I really like jj ecc83 and I admit that the tone of jj el84 is a little better and richer than sovtek (but I don't see a lot of tubes); but in therm of microphonicity (?) russian tubes aren't noisy.

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Post by dread pierat »

bajaman wrote:I will NOT use ANY Russian tubes for any of my amplifiers or customer's repairs
Did you try SED Winged C tubes from St. Petersburg, or is this opinion based on the Reflector Corp. products made in Saratov?

All the St. Petersburg tubes I've tried have been excellent, and I've also had good experience with certain Reflector Corp. products. These include Sovtek branded 12AX7WB, 6V6 and EL84M, and Tung-Sol 5881 and 12AX7.

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Post by MoonWatcher »

dread pierat wrote:
bajaman wrote:I will NOT use ANY Russian tubes for any of my amplifiers or customer's repairs
Did you try SED Winged C tubes from St. Petersburg, or is this opinion based on the Reflector Corp. products made in Saratov?

All the St. Petersburg tubes I've tried have been excellent, and I've also had good experience with certain Reflector Corp. products. These include Sovtek branded 12AX7WB, 6V6 and EL84M, and Tung-Sol 5881 and 12AX7.
I got a pair of SED 6L6's about a year and a half ago, and they are as excellent (so far) as when they were simply referred to as the Svetlana types about a decade+ ago.

At some point about 5 years ago, I started experiencing issues with Sovtek pre tubes that I previously never had issue with - the 12AX7LPS and its 70% gain counterpart, the 5751. My last two 5751's in particular developed hum and other issues shortly after using them. I haven't purchased any EHX 12AX7's in quite a few years, and don't typically prefer them anyway. I've gone thru two of their 12AY7's, with both starting to hum within months of usage. OTOH, I have a Sovtek or EHX 12AT7 that seems to be fine (knock on wood).

...These Sovtek/EHX pre tubes that are failing all tend to get that silvery look to over the top 1/3 of the glass. I forget what this is indicative of, or if it is an issue, but it is something I have visually noticed. While I've had other UOS/NOS/JAN/older stuff also develop hum or performance issues when used in the same amp(s) as the failing Sovtek/EHX stuff, I don't recall seeing this "silvering" going on with them.

I can say that the Chinese WA's and WB's that people tend to pull from their newer amps from the get-go have actually been okay in some of my amps. I also have a TAD EL84 in a little SE amp that has worked without issue for probably two years now.

I have no Chinese power tubes in my possession to comment on (other than the TAD EL84 and a 6V6 that's sitting in a box), but was going to try some Shuguang stuff, but was primarily only interested in their KT66, and only two of my amps will support the filament draw for those.

I *will not* deviate from using the JJ 6V6S in my Deluxe Reverb, despite it being more like a mini-6L6. They are simply bomb proof in all the time I've used them. I had a Sovtek recto in the DR that failed miserably, so I built a 4X1N4007 SS recto in an old octal base and popped that in, and rebiased the JJ's appropriately. Nice tight bass, no blow fuses, and the ability to up the mains filter caps should I want (the Deluxe Reverb is plugged into a 2X12 cab quite frequently).

...Which brings me to the Tung Sol 5881's. I had to try a pair after all of these guys just raved about them. I dropped in a pair and biased to maybe 65%, and had one redplate on me within maybe 12 hours of usage. Before pulling the amp apart to double check the bias circuitry (which I had overhauled/bolstered some time ago), I powered the amp down, swapped the pair of 5881's in their locations, powered up, and the redplating has been absent ever since. Needless to say, it has me a bit worried, and I find myself checking the rear of the amp probably more than just playing thru it. The amp in question has a max B+ of about 390VDC...

The funny thing is I have a scratchbuilt amp that I've put a bunch of different 6L6 and 6V6 types in, and I settled on a pair of those non-5881's that are the old Sovtek 5881WXT military surplus aberrations. That amp has cathode bias and a B+ of 360VDC. Most users seem to reject that tube outright, but this pair was free from a friend. They actually sound better than any other pair of tubes I've put in the amp, with a pair of Mesa-rebranded 6L6's at a close second. Since I picked up the Mesa's used and those tubes are "graded," I have no idea on the specifics.

I don't mind a shorter lifespan and "less grail sound" from the new production stuff, but it would be good to at least get a nominal period of decent usage without excessive noise problems, or worse yet - something that could lead to catastrophic failure. While I don't mind replacing a cheap (but decent sounding) Hammond Deluxe Reverb replacement transformer, I don't want the oldies in my non-scratchbuilt amps failing under any circumstances.

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Post by soulsonic »

Fixing up a nice Melos preamp for my cello instructor right now. Main issue is this loud white noise hiss from one channel. It uses a single ECC88 in each channel. So, I swap positions of the tubes, and yep, the noise switches channels, so I know it's one of the tubes. Oh, and it's an Electro-Harmonix branded set... of course. Tomorrow, I'm sticking a pair of JJs in there. I'm 99.9999% confident that's going to fix the problem. Those EHX tubes are crap.

But, I do totally agree about the Winged-C/SED/Svetlana tubes. I had a set of the original Svetlana EL34s (before EHX bought the name) in my Dynaco ST-70, and they were absolutely stupendous quality tubes. I'd recommend SED any day.

Other Russian tubes are hit or miss. I've used some that were good, some that were bad. Honestly, I'd take a "generic" unbranded Reflektor tube before I'd take an EHX branded one. Some of the military ones are pretty good, in my experience.

edit: oh, and the Chinese 12AX7s can be good, but you have to get them from a reputable brand that thoroughly tests them. When I worked for Weber, they'd get them straight from the factory, pretty much untested, and at least half of them were noisy microphonic garbage. If you get a branded Chinese one, it's probably going to sound good, but stay away from unbranded ones.
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Post by bajaman »

edit: oh, and the Chinese 12AX7s can be good, but you have to get them from a reputable brand that thoroughly tests them. When I worked for Weber, they'd get them straight from the factory, pretty much untested, and at least half of them were noisy microphonic garbage. If you get a branded Chinese one, it's probably going to sound good, but stay away from unbranded ones.
Hi Martin - these were most probably the earlier Chinese 12AX7 tubes - the 12AX7B is a MUCH better tube in my experience with them.
The Chinese have certainly come a long way since I first encountered their preamp tubes in a Peavey Triumph 60 combo in the late 80s - they used to sit their and crackle like fried eggs on the stove - they certainly didn't like high gain preamps :wink:
I think the Chinese quality control is much better than the Russian's (although i have heard of better results with the SED tubes) - I have noticed a decline in quality with some of the JJ preamp tubes in recent times (probably because a lot of OEM manufacturers are switching from the EHX Russian tubes :wink: and the JJ factory is having trouble meeting the increased demands??)
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Post by snofla1900 »

It uses a single ECC88 in each channel.
Do you really mean 88 or is it a typo . This is a cascaded preamptube.

Would like to see how they used it !

Can you give the resistors used - plate and cathode !

By the way : I like these very much : Russian 6P14P EBImage

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Post by soulsonic »

Yes, it is indeed an ECC88/6DJ8/6922 type that is specified. Right now, the EHX-branded tubes in it are 6922 types. The JJs I'm going to try in it are E88CC.
It is an interesting design, a hybrid that uses the tubes for gain and then power MOSFETs (IRF520, if I read correctly) as source followers to buffer the outputs.
I will try to get a chance to trace the basic layout of the circuit, because I am curious as well about how it works. It has balanced outputs, and I'm wondering if it uses the tube or one of the MOSFETs for the phase splitting.
snofla1900 wrote:
It uses a single ECC88 in each channel.
Do you really mean 88 or is it a typo . This is a cascaded preamptube.

Would like to see how they used it !

Can you give the resistors used - plate and cathode !
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Post by MoonWatcher »

bajaman wrote:I have noticed a decline in quality with some of the JJ preamp tubes in recent times (probably because a lot of OEM manufacturers are switching from the EHX Russian tubes :wink: and the JJ factory is having trouble meeting the increased demands??)
cheers
bajaman
I bought a trio of JJ 12AX7's shortly after they started offering them, and they were all very microphonic within a month or so. I don't know if I just had bad luck, but it was a shame as they clearly had a warmer sound than other stuff I ended up using.

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Post by D-Day »

I had two shitty sets of EHX el84's in a row in my Astroverb. Because of this thread I just replaced the second set with some matched Rubys (which were all they had at the shop I went to) today and it sounds great. I had actually gotten used to there being that lousy jingley noise every time I struck a low note. Thanks for the thread Dr Tony.

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Post by grrrunge »

After a couple of shitty experiences with EHX, Groove- and Ruby Tubes, I have bought nothing but TAD stuff for the last 10 years - preamp or power tubes... Works everytime, and the JJ 12AX7's sound great for modern rock :)
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