HAO - Rust Driver

Eak · Post by **Eak** » 22 Feb 2012, 11:29

I wanted to board mount my pot but I wasn't too keen on the one earlier in the thread. I used the layout on page 4 and made this for my own reference. Before I go about building it though, will someone check it over for me?

bigorangefan79 wrote:This looks to me like it has a 10k (instead of 100k)after .056 at input followed by 33k (instead of330k) across pins 1 and 2. This would really change things.

bigorangefan79 wrote:There is also a 47k resistor between 1/2 power and pins 3 and 5.

Though it seems with these I might have to completely redo the layout.

Thanks for all the information by the way, everyone.

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 22 Feb 2012, 16:38

bigorangefan79 wrote:There is also a 47k resistor between 1/2 power and pins 3 and 5.

I have edited by hand the Matsumin Schematic. I have attached in the body as a jpeg and attached a full sized PDF of my work. Please be kind to my bad at work hand writing with no drafting tools or an electronic means of drawing I am sunk LOL.. Someone please go through this as I was on the phone doing work while i did this. I forgot my camera at home but had the pedal so I opened it up and beeped out a lot of this. Knowing my dyslexia I probably switched something up so .. BE KIND ! LOL A very big thanks to Bigorangefan79 for spotting the value changes to 33k and 10k! Thanks!

See notes below!

1) Just confirmed this with continuity tester on the board itself...

2) De- gooped Chip : MC4558cn it's Chinese can't really tell the logo

3) r7 from matsumin schem is 10k not 22k

4) added 22p cap in stage one feedback parallel with 33k

5) all diode Part Numbers must be confirmed HELP!

6) switch is off of the output

7) There is extensive filtering and diode protection

i did not take the pot out to verify its value

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 22 Feb 2012, 17:27

S&^%$

I drew the diode from VCC to ground backwards![/color] That would short out the battery.

If a mod wants to delete the attachment I would appreciate it!

I re did the drawing which changed the in line picture. what is above now should be right at least for that LOL. I have attached the corrected PDF. Please be patient with me....

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 22 Feb 2012, 18:00

aegert wrote:S&^%$

I drew the diode from VCC to ground backwards![/color] That would short out the battery.

If a mod wants to delete the attachment I would appreciate it!

I re did the drawing which changed the in line picture. what is above now should be right at least for that LOL. I have attached the corrected PDF. Please be patient with me....

you can delete attachments yourself in the "user control panel" under "attachments"

bigorangefan79 · Post by **bigorangefan79** » 23 Feb 2012, 04:48

5) all diode Part Numbers must be confirmed HELP!

Aegert, could you measure the forward voltage of the clipping diodes with a multimeter for us?

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 23 Feb 2012, 11:25

bigorangefan79 wrote:
5) all diode Part Numbers must be confirmed HELP!
Aegert, could you measure the forward voltage of the clipping diodes with a multimeter for us?

The clippers are 1ss119's

I am on the road today so I will try later. I don't know if I can do this in circuit? Should be able too.. Stay tuned

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 23 Feb 2012, 12:34

ok just back from the gym tested before I leave for the day:

Diodes;

1) from 9v.black on side of board is .56v

2) connected to LED .71v.

these were in circuit with now power to pedal

A

guitarmongot · Post by **guitarmongot** » 23 Feb 2012, 20:24

Hi there aegert.
Great job there.Looks like Rustdriver is very simular to Rustdrive Bass.
Found this on another tread : a few changes in caps value and a diffrent IC
but again very simular.
cheers M

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 23 Feb 2012, 21:58

The 4558 looks to be a ST MC4558CN

Here are a few more pictures of the guts brighter and with more detail I would think these are the best shots so far... I believe we are done here. Just need someone to make a Vero and PCB of it

Any Takers?!?!?!

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 24 Feb 2012, 17:18

From a clipper diode perspective...

I have plenty of 1n41XX and 1n91X high speed switching diodes meant for rf tuning. I have a bunch of 1ss110,113 but no 1ss119.

1) does anyone have any experience in the differences of sound between the 119 and he others. I would just use 2 1n4148's

2) 1ss119 are in very short supply . There is a guy on eBay that will sell a lot of 50pc for $0.64 each delivered in the usa but that is steep for me.. Hell I have 20,000 diodes LOL I have never paid more than .01 rofl. DOES ANYONE THINK IT'S WORTH IT?

3) if I buy 50 would anybody want to take half? ( upfront sorry to mods for the share offer but it would be at my cost incl. shipping) if not and I grab them get to me and I can get you. Pairs for your build... ( again sorry mods, not trying to make money)

guitarmongot · Post by **guitarmongot** » 24 Feb 2012, 19:08

I bulit one vero Rustdriver from aegerts schematic :
I used BAW62 diods and .68 uF Input cap and MC4560 IC.
1nF on the output to ground (normal).
Less hiss than my earlier version : compressed midrange:
little thinner than the "real" Marshall Plexi but very nice tone:
cleans up nice with guitar vol pot.Unity gain at 1 o´clock.
Gets more "body" from 3 oclock at vol pot .
aegert : you messured forward voltage at 0.56 v on 1ss119 diods ?
BAW62 has 620 mV forward voltage .
/ cheers m

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 24 Feb 2012, 19:39

guitarmongot wrote:I bulit one vero Rustdriver from aegerts schematic :
I used BAW62 diods and .68 uF Input cap and MC4560 IC.
1nF on the output to ground (normal).
Less hiss than my earlier version : compressed midrange:
little thinner than the "real" Marshall Plexi but very nice tone:
cleans up nice with guitar vol pot.Unity gain at 1 o´clock.
Gets more "body" from 3 oclock at vol pot .
aegert : you messured forward voltage at 0.56 v on 1ss119 diods ?
BAW62 has 620 mV forward voltage .
/ cheers m

1) didn't measure forward voltages on the 1ss119's they are in parallel/ reversed and I am not de-soldering the board. Gonna leave it original.

2) the .56v forward voltage is for the diode running parallel with the 100uf/25v. from 9v. Vcc to ground..

3) What layout did you use to build

A

guitarmongot · Post by **guitarmongot** » 24 Feb 2012, 19:53

okay : my mistake

I used this vero as a base : but with mods according to your schematic (47K to pin 3 and 5 on IC)
1 nF on output lug 2 to ground (Normal) : R4 is 33K,R3 :10K, C3 is 680pF,C1 is 68 nF,IC is RC4560 / LF353N.
P1 ist 500k LIN.
cheers M

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 26 Feb 2012, 21:16

so i took the first build I did Jerry rigged it to make it to the new schem...

1) I am convinced that the pot on the output is a 250k or 100k I need to finalize taper. 250kA sounds good I will try the 100kA soon..

2) I might have botched the town bleed caps on the output what is the code for pf on Panasonic? I always get those wrong. 472kj or 472jk cant remember is that 470pf or 4.7n I have to say that the pf sounds better LOL. I have 1nf and 470pf. it could be right that I can measure so I will (Ah yet another double post coming ROFL)....

3) Mine has slightly less gain than the original I haven't pulled the original's 5% 470k gain resistor out to measure it mine is a 5% but slightly on the lower side of the 5% range I could make it a little larger to closer get the tone...

4) I have 1n4148's in I think, the 1ss119's might make a better more distinct cut I will order some to test. If anyone has a pair to send let me know I could trade for a pair. I have 1000's of 1n134a and 1n270. have 1000's of 2n404a mil gold ti's too... Pair for a pair is fair LOL

A

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 26 Feb 2012, 21:23

aegert wrote:1) I might have botched the town bleed caps on the output what is the code for pf on Panasonic? I always get those wrong. 472kj or 472jk cant remember is that 470pf or 4.7n I have to say that the pf sounds better LOL....

i usually google "472 cap" (or any value that i want to know) because i can never remember and it usually comes up with this website.

bigorangefan79 · Post by **bigorangefan79** » 26 Feb 2012, 21:43

472 is 47 with 2 zeros after it in pf's. So it would be 4700pf aka 4.7nf aka .0047uf.

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 26 Feb 2012, 23:56

bigorangefan79 wrote:472 is 47 with 2 zeros after it in pf's. So it would be 4700pf aka 4.7nf aka .0047uf.

that's what I thought but it kills way to much of the highs with the 500K pot. I changed the caps to 1nf and 470p and it was still to mute. The 250k pot made a difference. Maybe its a 100k pot that would change things big time. Then maybe the 4.7nf/ 1nf would fall in line I really don't want to pull the pot from the real rust driver.... I will play with the pots in my build and report back in a day or so

Seiche · Post by **Seiche** » 27 Feb 2012, 00:06

can't you measure it in circuit to get in the ball park?

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 27 Feb 2012, 10:55

Seiche wrote:can't you measure it in circuit to get in the ball park?

1)The pot was roughly 42k which in parallel with the 47k makes sence for a 500k. With the following it makes more audible sence too

2) the pedal uses 5% res so I am leaning towards the gain resistor. the in circuit by pass resistor of the gain stage measures closer to 490k I swapped that out and the gain fell much more in line.

3) the type of cap feedback cap, polystyreen, while more musical, have been notoriously low in my experience. my pedal was more muted than he real rust driver. I grabbed a ceramic 470pf and the high end started to come into line. I am going to get some polystyrene 680pf's and swap out.

4) Over all the tweaks above have brought the pedal I to line on a/b for the bright settling. I will put back the 1n and 4.7n in the switch and verify as the warm cap,4.7, on the hao is in usable. I will do this for originality but I won't put anything larger than 2.2n there in practice

Caveat: last night the wife and daughter were watching the oscars so all listening test happened through an amp modeler on clean into my DAW.. Will try to cank it through my high headroom amp later... I type this from the gym.

aegert · Post by **aegert** » 27 Feb 2012, 14:48

OK sorry for the double post hung back for 20min to crank it with no family present.. I had the Hao Rust Driver in the chain to A/B First thoughts (bright only):

1) had a 470pf ceramic in the feedback and it confirms to me my feelings about ceramic in the signal chain.. Less than luster LOL I put a 500pf silver mica in and boy did it pick up. My build was pretty indistinguishable from The hao. You can here slight I mean ultra slight differences between the 2 but I would chalk that up to different op amp chip me 4559.... Hao 4558. I have the same chip with change.

The clippers are different too (calling out for a swap if anyone has 1ss119's I'll trade fro a pair or buy outright.) Hell just this could be the whole enchilada

2) Cap discussion The 680pf in the Hao is a polystyrene which to my ears are really glassy and open but the tolerances and how they hold up long term are suspect. To bad because I think that's the best choice for this build. I will have to get 50pc of 680pf just to cull out 10 that will be the right value LOL. I have gone through to many .01's in my life time that were a good 20% off. I am positive based on my tests that if I took out the 680p it would be more like 500-560p measured. The silver mica's are more focused but not as open. Don't take this to deep from me it is a very very subtle thing. The ceramics are only good to bleed off tone for me I can't use them in signal chain anymore. Which brings up:

3) I have to build a silver mica (have 10p silver mica so 2x parallel) or get a polystyrene 22p, if it exists, for the first stage. The Hao used a ceramic but I would bet $'s for donuts that that will make the pedal more transparent and musical

4) Tonight I will get the switch caps in order. This is about a day away for being buttoned up. I have ripped this vero apart like 10 times LOL I am to lazy to bread bard it so I am building a bread board set up so I don't have to burn my fingers left and right re working my next build LOL. SO... I will re build the vero and take the off board components and put them on board to clean things up a bit...

5) hiss levels are exactly the same from my build to the Hao

HAO - Rust Driver [traced]