"Fake" 2n5457

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Post by mictester »

It's complete nonsense - there aren't any "fake" 2N5457s (or J201s for that matter) - there's no money to be made (except from the idiots that pay $15 for $0.60 worth of parts on Ebay). it's the same with the "fake" PT2399s - they're not - they're just from a different batch and just have slightly different characteristics.

Just for the sake of amusement, I compared a very highly priced germanium fuzz face with a silicon job with the lowpass capacitors (base to collector of each transistor - start at 47p and increase to taste). In a blind test, they were indistinguishable.....
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Post by Dirk_Hendrik »

mictester wrote:It's complete nonsense - there aren't any "fake" 2N5457s (or J201s for that matter) - there's no money to be made (except from the idiots that pay $15 for $0.60 worth of parts on Ebay). it's the same with the "fake" PT2399s - they're not - they're just from a different batch and just have slightly different characteristics.
+1
and another +1 for the PT's. Counterfeit PT2399's must be crap from someone who could not get is delay to work and blamed the part with the most legs.

Ask yourself why anyone would bother relabelling friggin FET's to sell em at idiot low prices again? It's not worth it. Buy cheap trannies, relabel em and sell em off again for shit. Naah.

How about relabelling chips to become SAD512D's?, SAD1024', SAD4096's? , Curtis CEM chips (happens already) and PMI SSM chips? To name some chips used in musical equipment gear. That's where real counterfeit money is. Not in some friggin FET's for which the TO92 version was just recenty obsoleted and are used only by a rare breed of "fx builders" (or even worse "Beautique effects builders" who are unable to adapt to the commonly used SMT technology every real electronics company uses).
Sorry. Plain out of planes.

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Post by fuzzfiend »

This debate about counterfeit parts has gone on for a while without any official word from the manufacturers. Since I don't have any questionable 2N5457's, I sent a picture of a couple of J201's (one from Mouser and one from Tayda) to Fairchild to see what they had to say. The email I got back confirmed that the Tayda part (date code C521) was indeed a counterfeit. That's good enough proof for me.

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Post by dai h. »

FWIW there's one mention about fake JFETs in this thread (towards the bottom) :

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=58437.0

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Post by electrosonic »

Tayda is currently out of stock of J201s and 2N5457.

I am curious if they ever get more - I don't think the through hole versions of those are made any more.

Andrew.

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Post by Ice-9 »

fuzzfiend wrote:This debate about counterfeit parts has gone on for a while without any official word from the manufacturers. Since I don't have any questionable 2N5457's, I sent a picture of a couple of J201's (one from Mouser and one from Tayda) to Fairchild to see what they had to say. The email I got back confirmed that the Tayda part (date code C521) was indeed a counterfeit. That's good enough proof for me.

FF
Can you post those pictures here please.
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Post by fuzzfiend »

This is the picture I sent to Fairchild for verification. The authentic Fairchild part I got from Mouser is on the left. They said the part on the right (from Tayda) is counterfeit.

FF
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Date code BJ46 is a real Fairchild part.  Date code C521 is counterfeit.
Date code BJ46 is a real Fairchild part. Date code C521 is counterfeit.
J201s_Mouser_vs_Tayda.jpg (32.54 KiB) Viewed 8530 times
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Post by Ice-9 »

fuzzfiend wrote:This is the picture I sent to Fairchild for verification. The authentic Fairchild part I got from Mouser is on the left. They said the part on the right (from Tayda) is counterfeit.

FF
The part on the right look like the lettering has been laser etched onto the part quite poorly, and i'm happy to say my bag of J201's look identical to the one's on the left. :applause:
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Post by J0K3RX »

Can we put this "Fake or Not" debate to bed once and for all?

To the nay-sayers - disbelievers
Look up/google - Detection of counterfeit electronic components through ambient mass spectrometry and chemometrics

Would Mouser, Digi-Key and other large distributors have "Anti-Counterfeit Parts Risk Mitigation" task forces if this were complete non sense? http://www.mouser.com/anticounterfeitparts/

So, the next time you guys load your baskets up at Tayda just keep in mind... They are not a "AS9100C Registered Distributor" and they have no certifications what so ever the last time I looked but, they do however have a great satisfaction guarantee and return policy and from what I have seen they make good on it almost 100% of the time. I personally do not want to call up or email a supplier every time and ask for a refund or in store credit... I would prefer to get what I ordered the 1st time!

These "Hobbyist Suppliers" are just that and nothing more. I doubt they supply to the military, automotive, aviation, medical or any others that require industry wide certification of their components. Handling, packaging and delivery of components also falls under the guidelines of these certifications and must be taken into consideration as well.

If the supplier/s that you are buying from is not a "AS9100C Registered Distributor" with the following certifications then good luck to you and your pedals or whatever you are building...
AS9100C and ISO9001:2008 and ANSI/ESD S20.20-2007 certifications.

If they are registered and certified they will proudly display their certifications!
http://www.mouser.com/as9100C/

This is a HUGE deal for medical, aviation, military and countless other industries where lives and money hang in the balance. They can not afford to have failures due to counterfeit failing or out of spec components and go to great measures to make sure this does not happen. This is nothing new and has been in place for years...

Also, keep in mind that this is not just something that is happening with a few parts like JFETs and PT2399's... This is industry wide and they do it with everything they possibly can! It is a multi billion dollar maybe trillion dollar a year market and they can re-mark these components and ship them faster than you can say stompbox!

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Post by Dirk_Hendrik »

I would never state I was a disbeliever. Search counterfeit here and the first hits are probably my posts. It's just I have real trouble with beliving counterfeited 0.001 cent (bulk) components.

J0K3RX wrote: This is a HUGE deal for medical, aviation, military and countless other industries where lives and money hang in the balance. They can not afford to have failures due to counterfeit failing or out of spec components and go to great measures to make sure this does not happen. This is nothing new and has been in place for years...
Now that's an interesting one to use as an example.
As you may (or not) know, every part used in aerospace must be tracable back to the original vendor of that part. This bureacratic process costs a lot of time and paperwork and causes, as an example, a replacement resistor to cost 25 dollars/ euro's or whatever easily. Other than that, finding that replacement part (with tracability) may be very hard and take weeks to monts. That in turn can cause planes to be grounded for that time. And that is unacceptable for a military opeartion. Therefore the military can overrule the standard (FAA/EASA) regulations with their own and use the part they select as a suitable replacement.

Now read:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-18155293
http://archive.defensenews.com/article/ ... ate-Report
http://www.ibtimes.com/why-pentagon-fin ... ent-701214
http://articles.courant.com/2014-06-03/ ... ter-picone
Sorry. Plain out of planes.

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Post by J0K3RX »

Look up "Chinese drywall" they will use anything to make money! If they are making something and they have most of the ingredients except for one or two they will substitute anything that they have a great quantity of... I saw a show and they were using cardboard boxes and anything cardboard they could find in food products. They were boiling it down until it was this awful looking paste and then using it in the food products. There was another story about pressure treated wood where they supplied the chemical that was used in the wood and for some reason they changed the chemicals. Builders were using the wood and later on buildings and structures were collapsing. They found that they chemicals were actually dissolving the nails and causing everything to just fall apart. A brand new bleacher section at a game with hundreds of people on it collapsed injuring a bunch of people because the nails disintegrated... They will counterfeit anything!! I doubt there are 500 little children sitting on 5 gallon buckets in some building in China sanding and re-painting the little symbols on these electronics components. These parts are all still in reels and on tape all facing the same direction... they are being fed back into the machines just like that and then packaged with their new identities... Probably takes very little time or effort to do this and then they can sell stock that would have otherwise sat in a warehouse for years. I am sure they can do this with ease and probably have entire plants that do nothing but re-mark components. If there is no money in re-marking these parts because they are so cheap then why would they bother making them in the first place? They look at the big picture and they have been for thousands of years even if it takes one little stone at a time... The Great Wall of China and what they went through to build it is proof positive of that!

The list is endless..
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=11656278

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Post by Ice-9 »

J0K3RX wrote:Look up "Chinese drywall" they will use anything to make money! If they are making something and they have most of the ingredients except for one or two they will substitute anything that they have a great quantity of... I saw a show and they were using cardboard boxes and anything cardboard they could find in food products. They were boiling it down until it was this awful looking paste and then using it in the food products. There was another story about pressure treated wood where they supplied the chemical that was used in the wood and for some reason they changed the chemicals. Builders were using the wood and later on buildings and structures were collapsing. They found that they chemicals were actually dissolving the nails and causing everything to just fall apart. A brand new bleacher section at a game with hundreds of people on it collapsed injuring a bunch of people because the nails disintegrated... They will counterfeit anything!! I doubt there are 500 little children sitting on 5 gallon buckets in some building in China sanding and re-painting the little symbols on these electronics components. These parts are all still in reels and on tape all facing the same direction... they are being fed back into the machines just like that and then packaged with their new identities... Probably takes very little time or effort to do this and then they can sell stock that would have otherwise sat in a warehouse for years. I am sure they can do this with ease and probably have entire plants that do nothing but re-mark components. If there is no money in re-marking these parts because they are so cheap then why would they bother making them in the first place? They look at the big picture and they have been for thousands of years even if it takes one little stone at a time... The Great Wall of China and what they went through to build it is proof positive of that!

The list is endless..
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=11656278
Where money can be made people will do anything to make it, and it isn't just Capitalists, it's everbody.
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No silicon heaven ? preposterous ! Where would all the calculators go ?

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Post by gaetano »

Did you compare them to the datasheet?
Hi guys yes I did compare them, from memory they were NPN's i.e, NOT FET's at all.

I have MPF102 / J201 / 2N3819 / 2SK30A(O), (Y) & (GR) etc. and measured the Idss of them to check and they were and are correct when purchased. I can use these when testing to make sure they show the correct Idss and pinout.

The 2N5457 Fets in question were sanded dull on the face, whereas all of the hundreds of others in my drawers have the same shiny face as the rest of the body. This is what made me suspicious, and some also looked like they were restamped.

BUT when I checked pinout and Idss from the datasheet nothing, I also check them in circuit and nothing. I always check pinout and Idss before soldering them in.

PayPal refunded me in the end, as they obvoiously had some other complaints, but what annoys me is, I had to return counterfeit components to someone who tried to scam me, in order to get some of the money back! I purchased 100 @ ~0.40c = $40. It is hard to prove as they sell so many to unsuspecting stompbox builders, some which are I suspect newbies and who would therefore assume that a circuit that did not work was their fault somehow, but could actually be a completely wrong part. Try it out put an NPN where a FET goes and see what you get. It may make for an interesting effect if it works at all, but not what you would be expecting!

Don't ask me how it is economically viable for people to restamp these, I did not expect it, as usually they only fake higher cost parts like 2SC1583 @ $10 each to make it worthwhile.

I once purched $500 of 2SC1583 which were fake, luckily I got my money back from a major seller, who however sounded more shocked over the fact that I tested all of my parts, and not that they were fake!

Dalbani (Nikko) also sold me fake 2SK30A(O), I found out when I measured the Idss of them.

2SK30A(O) 0.60 < Idss < 1.40 needed for the x0xb0x VCO.

2SK30A(GR) 2.60 < Idss < 6.50

They were all: Idss ~ 6.00, so obviously 'GR' and not 'O'

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Post by apollomusicservice »

These days I "stepped on a mine", in local electronic supply store I purchased 100pcs J201 and
all of them were fake. Supplier was surprised and I got back my money. :?

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Post by nanodocl »

Here is an article from Hector Cabrera of Retroamplis (Spain), explaining how these transistors are rebranded. It is in spanish, but you can use google's translate website. :applause:

http://retroamplis.blogspot.com.es/2015 ... -fake.html

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Post by mictester »

FFS! :slap:

The "fakes" are just parts that were at the outer edges of their specification windows and had been dumped in a warehouse somewhere because they're not (quite) to specification. For example: The "fake" Fairchild J201s earlier in this thread are all genuine Fairchild parts - they just came from different plants.

The JRC 4558s that came from the Japanese plants were quite different to the ones with the same branding that came from Indonesia!

Back in the 1970s, a friend of my Father's worked at "Erie Resistor" in Great Yarmouth. I was taken to see how these components were made:

They produced great long strings of resistors of (say) nominally 10k. They'd then batch test them. If they were all 10k +/- 5%, they'd get marked Brown, Black, Orange, Gold. If they came out around 8k2 +/- 5% (and they sometimes would!) they got marked Grey, Red, Red, Gold. Similarly, if they came out around 12k, they'd get marked accordingly.

If they came out with widely differing values (around 10k) they'd be marked as 10% (silver band) parts.

The point is that they were all the same component - from the same process - it's just that there was a significant spread in their characteristics! The higher the nominal value, the greater the spread of range. My Father's friend had the job of designing the testing and sorting machines, and for their day they were quite sophisticated. It was amazing to watch these things at work measuring and sorting the parts and putting them into various bins by value.

Erie also made capacitors (despite their name) and the spread in the characteristics of these was even bigger than the resistors. The test machine connected the capacitor under test to an oscillator and measured the frequency that was generated. The capacitor was then put into the correct bin according to calculated value. If the oscillator failed to start when a capacitor was connected, the part went into the reject bin!

When I was at Panasonic, there was a similar testing regime. The quietest op-amps went into Panasonic Technics products, the noisier ones were sold cheaply to other manufacturers!

This has always gone on - it's the only economical way to make many parts.
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Post by Dirk_Hendrik »

Siemens used to have/had a completely automated measuring line for their capacitor production. They were automatically measured and placed in the correct bin. This "binning" was part of the functionality of the HP LCR meter used. Especially in the low (pF) capacity range this was far easier than trying to get the production output tighter.

And I still do not believe in couterfeited 1ct components.
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Post by Blitz Krieg »

Parts are made. measured. Binned. and then labeled. Why would they get labeled if they fell so far out of the specified parameters for said part?

most big companies will destroy inferior product so that it doesn't end up on the marketplace and harm their most valuable asset - their reputation.

maybe the parts get tested again after labeling? someone walked out of the wharehouse with a box full of rejects that were in the garbage?

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Post by Fender3D »

Blitz Krieg wrote:...most big companies will destroy inferior product so that it doesn't end up on the marketplace...
Why they should?
FETs aren't made for DrBoogies or runoffgroove's only...

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Post by mictester »

Blitz Krieg wrote:maybe the parts get tested again after labeling? someone walked out of the wharehouse with a box full of rejects that were in the garbage?
No to both. The most accurately specced components end up in the higher priced products, and the dross gets sold to the homebrew market. This has always gone on.
"Why is it humming?" "Because it doesn't know the words!"

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