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Stupidly Awesome Buffer  [documentation]

Posted: 25 Apr 2015, 18:02
by soulsonic
I just noticed there are alot of poor buffer designs floating around out there... well, I know this is a topic that's pretty much been done to death already, since it's one of the simplest things to build, but I figured I'd share this just for the sake of having a good one out there.
Consider this a "Reference" buffer. :roll:
You can run it on any power supply from 9v to 18v. I wouldn't bother with less than 9v, and it would be fine to run it on a voltage higher than 18v, as long as the capacitors are rated for a sufficiently high voltage.

PCB layout is included in the PDF...
sab-buffer1.pdf
Stupidly Awesome Buffer - Schematic & PCB Layout
(210.25 KiB) Downloaded 2589 times

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 02:17
by mictester
That's almost exactly the circuit I've always used, except I tend to use slightly different bias values to you, I put RF bypassing on the input (I don't like getting the local AM radio Station through my guitar rig), and I mostly use a dual (or quad) op-amp because it's usually part of an effect rather than a standalone buffer board. One other thing I often add is a pair of diodes to the input to prevent static spikes getting through, and I usually short the input (when no plug inserted), so that the output is (close to) silent until something is plugged in.

Incidentally,why do you want the output 10µ cap to be bipolar? The op-amp end of it is certain to be "more positive" than the output end, so there's no advantage to using the more expensive part.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 03:51
by soulsonic
Those are all good suggestions.

I got into the habit of using bipolar caps whenever I'm doing signal coupling. In particular, the Nichicon MUSE series seem to add a nice character to anything I build. Now, I haven't done any exhaustive listening tests to determine if they really do sound better than whatever other one, but the fact that everything I've built with them sounds good is enough to satisfy me. And the cost for those isn't much more - maybe I'll pay 30 cents for a MUSE in single quantities, when I would have paid 10 cents for a common polarized cap, but I'm really not worried about spending 20 cents more, and the physical construction of the MUSE is very obviously better quality than most cheaper caps - nice thick copper leads, etc... they're just nice, and I feel good using nice things when I build something. That's the main reason I prefer to build my own, so I can use nicer components.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 09:56
by mictester
Fair enough - I'll have a look at those capacitors because I have a project that needs a couple of bipolars.

I also use a similar buffer at the output of effects, too. It's amusing to see the reaction of musicians when their "naturally dark-sounding" rigs gain some sparkling treble when their cables are driven at low impedance! I also (sometimes) build a balanced output buffer for some gear - I have a Class G output circuit I use for elevated output voltages when driving long cables - and many of my devices are balanced in and out to eliminate hum and noise in a stage environment.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 13:15
by phatt
Hi chaps,, Q/ Is there any advantage to using rather high values for the bias divider network?
I notice 100k in the drawing.
My understanding is that lower values deliver a stiff Vref which maybe important. Maybe I'm missing something? :scratch:
I guess very low values would just drain the battery faster. I've always gone by the 1k per volt rule of thumb for that part.
Phil.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 13:20
by soulsonic
Since the JFET type opamps have very low bias current, I've found higher values work well with them and result in lower current draw from the overall circuit.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 26 Apr 2015, 15:25
by Dirk_Hendrik
Mic,
Is the "fair enough" a response to Martin's explanation on the MUSE's mechanical capabilities (that's the thicker leads et al) or the sonic description?

Becayse in the latter case I'll have to eat my hat. :hmmm:

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 27 Apr 2015, 05:53
by mictester
The mechanical description - and that he's found a reasonably priced bipolar capacitor.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 27 Apr 2015, 23:23
by okgb
dO the bi polar not potentially avoid possible crossover distortions?
I don't mind voodoo if I'm not being ripped off for it, and in personal experience ( side by side )
The Elna polarized caps sound better than average , not brighter but less muddy, the most dramatic
example redoing one channel of a Drawmer 1960 hybrid tube comp, so
Average cap vs Elna ( or high end ) cap vs bi polar?

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 28 Apr 2015, 01:43
by soulsonic
It really depends on the circuit. In one's like this, where the opamp is run from a single rail supply with a biasing voltage, the capacitor sees a polarizing voltage from that, so bipolar capacitor really isn't necessary to reduce distortion. But, if this were a circuit that were running from a bipolar supply, that polarizing voltage wouldn't be present, so a bipolar capacitor would likely perform better.

Elna makes some bipolar caps in the "Silmic" series, I believe. I've used Silmics and Cerafines before. I like to use the Cerafines for power filtering, but I've noticed they're rather delicate and don't react well to things like accidentally giving a reverse voltage or over-voltage...have killed at least a couple while experimenting on breadboard.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 29 Apr 2015, 16:14
by DrNomis
I'll have to have a go at building this design, I downloaded the pdf but will have to wait till I get my Electronics workbench all set up again cause I shifted it back into my lounge room after doing some tidying up of my flat, cheers Soulsonic.... :thumbsup

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 25 May 2015, 18:04
by PokeyPete
mictester wrote:That's almost exactly the circuit I've always used, except I tend to use slightly different bias values to you, I put RF bypassing on the input (I don't like getting the local AM radio Station through my guitar rig), and I mostly use a dual (or quad) op-amp because it's usually part of an effect rather than a standalone buffer board. One other thing I often add is a pair of diodes to the input to prevent static spikes getting through, and I usually short the input (when no plug inserted), so that the output is (close to) silent until something is plugged in.

Incidentally,why do you want the output 10µ cap to be bipolar? The op-amp end of it is certain to be "more positive" than the output end, so there's no advantage to using the more expensive part.
mictester wrote:I also use a similar buffer at the output of effects, too. It's amusing to see the reaction of musicians when their "naturally dark-sounding" rigs gain some sparkling treble when their cables are driven at low impedance! I also (sometimes) build a balanced output buffer for some gear - I have a Class G output circuit I use for elevated output voltages when driving long cables - and many of my devices are balanced in and out to eliminate hum and noise in a stage environment.
Mictester, I would be very interested to see these input and output buffers.....if you don't mind.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 28 May 2015, 00:22
by tabbycat
PokeyPete wrote:Mictester, I would be very interested to see these input and output buffers.....if you don't mind.
+1 re seeing your buffer variants, mictester. extended options sound interesting but want to be sure i'm implementing them as intended.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 30 May 2015, 09:39
by Dirk_Hendrik
PokeyPete wrote:
mictester wrote:That's almost exactly the circuit I've always used, except I tend to use slightly different bias values to you, I put RF bypassing on the input (I don't like getting the local AM radio Station through my guitar rig), and I mostly use a dual (or quad) op-amp because it's usually part of an effect rather than a standalone buffer board. One other thing I often add is a pair of diodes to the input to prevent static spikes getting through, and I usually short the input (when no plug inserted), so that the output is (close to) silent until something is plugged in.

Incidentally,why do you want the output 10µ cap to be bipolar? The op-amp end of it is certain to be "more positive" than the output end, so there's no advantage to using the more expensive part.
mictester wrote:I also use a similar buffer at the output of effects, too. It's amusing to see the reaction of musicians when their "naturally dark-sounding" rigs gain some sparkling treble when their cables are driven at low impedance! I also (sometimes) build a balanced output buffer for some gear - I have a Class G output circuit I use for elevated output voltages when driving long cables - and many of my devices are balanced in and out to eliminate hum and noise in a stage environment.
Mictester, I would be very interested to see these input and output buffers.....if you don't mind.
I'd like to see a shitload of builds Mic says he built. Unfortunately Mic is very good at claiming and even better at making sure his claims can never be out to the test.

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 31 May 2015, 19:40
by BJF
soulsonic wrote:I just noticed there are alot of poor buffer designs floating around out there... well, I know this is a topic that's pretty much been done to death already, since it's one of the simplest things to build, but I figured I'd share this just for the sake of having a good one out there.
Consider this a "Reference" buffer. :roll:
You can run it on any power supply from 9v to 18v. I wouldn't bother with less than 9v, and it would be fine to run it on a voltage higher than 18v, as long as the capacitors are rated for a sufficiently high voltage.

PCB layout is included in the PDF...
sab-buffer1.pdf
Hi

Ok but how about checking in what way the load affects an electric guitar pick up and in that case you can look at the resonance that the choke of a dynamic guitar pick up has and yes at 2M2 you'd keep most of it but then is that really wanted ?
Check what lower impedances do to response

At your service
BJ
BJF Electronics
Sweden

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 02 Jun 2015, 03:05
by soulsonic
I see what you mean. I have certainly gotten some good results with it being lower before. The trend with "selling" a buffer seems to be for it to be high, though...

I have a question: there is 2M2 going to ground at the input, and this is in parallel with the 2M2 going to virtual ground after the 100n capacitor. So the AC impedance for the input then is about 1M, I assume? And what difference does it make to how the pickup interacts that part of the load is DC coupled and part is AC coupled? Would there be an appreciable difference in the sound if instead of using equal values, have perhaps the first one be 10M and AC coupled one be 1M? Would this sound very much different, I wonder?

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 02 Jun 2015, 20:22
by uncleboko
Don't forget, the lower the bias current, the faster your fingers will play!

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 04 Jun 2015, 07:28
by soulsonic
Why must you be rude here, Mr.Giles? On Aron's forum, you're helpful... :(
I've never been like that towards you at all...

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 08 Jun 2015, 10:06
by BJF
soulsonic wrote:I see what you mean. I have certainly gotten some good results with it being lower before. The trend with "selling" a buffer seems to be for it to be high, though...

I have a question: there is 2M2 going to ground at the input, and this is in parallel with the 2M2 going to virtual ground after the 100n capacitor. So the AC impedance for the input then is about 1M, I assume? And what difference does it make to how the pickup interacts that part of the load is DC coupled and part is AC coupled? Would there be an appreciable difference in the sound if instead of using equal values, have perhaps the first one be 10M and AC coupled one be 1M? Would this sound very much different, I wonder?

Hi,

Let’s assume you have a guitar connected to the input and further only take into account that the output of an electric guitar is a choke of relatively low Q with a peak caused by wiring capacitances. We’ll for the sake of below simplicity model the output as a choke with a capacitive load and henceforth call it the guitar pick up.

What the pick ups sees is the composite load and if you draw an AC schematic of the input circuit you’ll see that Volume and Tone controls ( assumed to be on full) appear as parallell loads and in parallell with those is also mainly the capacitance of the guitar cable used ( for the sake of this model let’s ignore other ghost
components that appear in the wiring-this because most of those form filters way above the audio band) and further in parallell you get as parallell load a resistor that holds input capacitor at ground potential; let’s now assume that the reactance of the input capacitance is low enough to be ignored for audio frequencies
( when in doubt compute corner frequency) as in this example corner frequency computes at roughly 1,6 Hz; then the bias return resistor at the non inverting input appears as parallell load and lastly also in parallell the input impedance of the OP amp appears- this is computed as the Ri of the OP amp multiplied with the gain
at the point in bandwidth and for practical purposes here this value can be ignored with the OP amp used as this load will be more thousands times larger than any of the other loads.

So what do we have with values shown and just looking at the input of the circuit AC load computes roughly at DC reference resistor//OP reference resistor and with values 10M//2M2≈ total load
Hence the composite load that the input circuit forms for AC becomes the parallell of the loads ( regardless if they are connected to ground or a DC-potential that for AC is considered ground)

Depending on OP amp used the resistor to non inverting input may be selected to give the smallest DC offset at output-some fine bipolar OP amps draw input current and for instance the RI of a 741 is on the order of 100K while that is to be multiplied with the gain at the frequency that impedance is calculated and thus for
the most part on the order of a few Mega Ohms.

Techniques to freely adjust input impedance and keep DC shift low includes ’Bootstrapping’ and the point of ’Bootstrapping is to reduce current through the OP reference resistor to near zero and thus the impedance it forms for AC will be on the order 100 Mega Ohms or more.

Summary is that if you wish to achieve a particular input impedance to work as load on a guitar pick up selection of resistor values can be done freely.

Further assume a guitar like a Stratocaster and using the bridge pick up:
Internal load in the guitar is the volume pot, let’s say 250K Ohms

If you make a model of this ( and for this purpose ignore the ghost components created) you get a choke output that is loaded by 250K and it is when connected with a cable further loaded with the capacitance of the cable say it’s a 6 meter standard cable and internal capacitance of that is 750pF.

Further assume you have connected this to a buffer that has an input impedance of 2M2.

Simplifying and jast taking the major influences gives

Choke output is loaded by 250K//2200K//750pF ( to solve you first compute the resistance)

What the capacitance does is form a 2 pole LP filter with the choke output meaning that slope will be about 12dB/Octave ( but this filter will have resonance)

Compare again the same but now with buffer input at 500K

Choke output is now loaded with 250K//500K// 750pF ( to solve you first compute the resistances)

If you draw a frequency/impedance graph of the strat pick up ( i.e. a typical Fender stratocaster pick up in bridge position) in this example we can assume that a low passfilter with a resonant peak is formed and such a filter will mainly have its resonance affected by the composite load it is exposed to.
One can show that if this pick up is loaded by 100pF and a varying load of 2M2 to 10K the sharp resonance at 2M2 is flattened to a slope without resonance at 10K and in between values adjust the height of the resonance

It is sufficient to accept this to see what the load does and now there is no correct answer to a perfect load as what sounds perfect is firstly not scientifically defined in any model and further pick up loading is just a small part of the composite system string to speaker cloth

However a fun experiment is to make the DC reference resistor (as mentioned above variable from 2M to 10K and make the buffer have large enough impedance not to affect too much.

You should be able to hear how higher loads allow more of the pick up resonance and you may also find a point where you think resonance just feels good.

Anyway just adjusting from say composite load of 1M to 10K will do two things partly affecting the resonance of the pick up and also affect the taper of the volume control when set at other positions that full or zero.

At your service
BJ
BJF Electronics

Re: Stupidly Awesome Buffer

Posted: 08 Jun 2015, 23:58
by Intripped
What about making the input impedance of the buffer the same as the amplifier's input impedance?
Would this arrangement make the buffer more "transparent"?


PS:
...and also, what about the output impedance of the buffer?
I mean, if we make it the same as the guitar's output impedance, does our buffer still work as a buffer or are we vanishing the buffering effect instead?
I'm talking about the capability of driving long cables without the treble loss

If the buffering effect remains intact, then the amplifier would sound exactly as if the guitar was directly plugged into it. Or am I missing something else?

PS2:
...I'm sorry if my questions look stupid, I'm just trying to understand and learn