Clown Centurion (reworked Klon)  [documentation]

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Post by dylan159 »

This is my last one, I have some of these in store, which I will sure to share if you like.

I like to take circuits I find interesting and rework them according to my taste following some guidelines, which can be summed up as:

-reducing the number of components as much as possible. I think there's beauty and elegance in simple things, and if I can get away with it or have a good reason to, I like to use less components
-standard values. I like to stick to E6 values for the same reasons, and also for accessibility, if I can. Call it a challenge but if I can get to the same results sticking to standard values, and you usually can, even for the half of values or less that are actually relevant. If the accuracy penalty is too big though, I don't.
-Noise. I like to apply simple concepts like low impedance design and avoiding attenuation before amplification to improve noise performance. Noise is usually neglected in guitar pedals, but with the high gains sometimes involved, I don't see why that should be the case if it can be helped.
-Faithfulness. Before all the rest, I strive to keep the circuit sounding as it is unless I have a good reason. People like the sound of these circuits, and I'm not here to argue with that, just to suggest a different way to get to the same goal. This means same gain over headroom and frequency response throughout.

So, the klon. This isn't addressed to people for which only the original will do, or only an exact copy, I don't wanna argue with those. This is for everyone else who like the sound of the pedal or new circuits. I have some interesting insights I've collected on the circuit though, and some circuit analysis sprinkled throughout.
clown.png
Let's go step by step:
-Input stage. This is just a buffer, nothing to see here, altough the input resistor (maybe ESD protection) was removed according to all the points above.
-The three branches. This is the tricky part. As some might know, the effected signal is a mix of three by the U2A summing amplifier, with a dual gang pot controlling gain of two of them. Well, that's only part of the story, as I found that R3 and C4 (in my schem) also form and high pass filter with C2 for the clipping path! Of course there's also clean attenuated signal tapped off there by R5, and this part is mostly unchanged, except for R3 being a standard value.
klontop.png
-The bottom branch. This one carries clean signal of which the volume is adjusted by half of the gain pot. In the original, the signal to the gain pot comes from a fixed attenuator formed by a 5.1K and a 1.5K resistor, to which are added a 68n shelving highpass (bright cap) and a shelving lowpass cap. After the volume, the signal goes again through a shelving lowpass formed by the 27K in parallel with the 12K and 27n into the summing amp. In parallel to this there's a 22K and a 2.2n. Unlike the other one, this network is not at virtual ground and its output isn't summed directly. Here's an assumption, and it is that this network isn't relevant. In the simulation of the original it's been included and it doesn't contribute significantly to the signal coming from this branch. Another possibility is that the diodes conducting will pull this side to ground, but even with it grounded there's no difference. Maybe it's the other way around and it affects the signal coming from the clipping stage? I don't think so, as the source impedance there is much lower, so I think it's a safe assumption.
I find this branch quite messy, with shelving filters which partially cancel each other, and indeed as you can see in the album, the frequency response of this branch is less interesting that it would seem. I decided to rework it into a simple volume control, which is tapered so that the volume closely follows that of the original (important for balancing with the distorted signal), followed by a low pass filter. The frequency response is close enough, at least for me.
klonbottom.png
and here's both clean branches together:
klonclean.png
-The clipping stage. I decided to keep the shelving highpass filter of C3 and R4 because it was necessary to get an accurate response. Other changes are the use of standard values and the removal of the stopper resistor. Overall gain and frequency response are very close. If you're interested, the gain pot is pulling double duty: half of it attenuates the signal with R4, the other half is the grounded leg of the feedback divider, setting the gain and also frequency response of the op amp in series with R6 and C5, the latter making an highpass shelving filter especially at high gain.
-Clipping. I'm not using germanium diodes here because I don't consider them commonly available, but you can do as you want. I'm a fan of BAT41 diodes because they've proven to be very close at least in the VI curve. Another change is to C7 and R8. Their cutoff stays the same, I just like to avoid those big 1u caps if I can. A side effect is that the current to the diodes is further limited, leading to a softer clipping (I've messed with this concept in simulation with transfer functions). The gain of the summing amplifier shouldn't be affected because when the diodes are clipping (and they will with their low Vf and the high gain), the source impedance will be much lower with respect to the 47K. C8 is 1u but if you don't care about losing about 2dB at 30hz (and you can, especially with guitar especially for the distorted signal) it can be 100n.
klonclipping.png
here's also just as curiosity all three branches together. This isn't particularly meaningful because it doesn't account for the clipping diodes, but it's interesting to see they're close anyway.
klonall.png
-Summing amplifier. This is the same frequency response except that the gain is lower and it uses standard values. I guess it's time to talk about...
-Headroom. Yes, the charge pump is not there. No 24Vpp output from this, "only" about 7V, which is still tens of times more than a guitar signal in gain terms, while in dB terms this means just 10dB lower. And we're talking with everything absolutely cranked, a big boosted signal coming in, to even get there, and ignoring that anything after this will get beat to hell anyway. That's the raw voltage output. Regarding headroom, I've made sure that there's no unintentional clipping, especially on the summing and tone stages. The two clean paths add up to a slightly attenuated version of the clean signal at the summing amplifier output, so no trouble there at any gain setting. The clipping stage gets amplfied by 2 and its output is in the worst case 0,6vpp with schottky diodes, so we're far from hitting the rails. All this goes into the tone control, which at most has 5.6x gain at high frequencies. This is actually a modest amount for a clean signal even at max boost, while for the clean signal it means the output will only reach 3V even if we consider it a full range boost, still far from the headroom of a 072 at 9V. Slew rate isn't a concern either, since even the slowest opamps won't struggle to output the full audio bandwidth at the amplitudes allowed at 9V, and the 072 isn't slow either.
-Tone control. This one can be considered basically the treble half of the baxandall tone control, and it's pretty much as the original, but with the resistor values scaled down because lower johnson noise always makes me happy. I've fiddled around with cap and stopper values to get a response very similar to the original.
klontone.png
-Output and bypass. The volume stopper has been removed because unnecessary, the volume pot made log for a smoother sweep, caps made 10u which is my standard go to value for low output impedance (nothing wrong with 4.7u). The "anti pop" resistor on the bypass switch have been removed because R12 and the volume pot already prevent all pops, the 68K and the 100K on the output jack might only help to prevent pops with a broken pedal leaking DC plugged after it. Fix that pedal instead. The bleed of effected signal in bypass, altough tiny, seems like a flaw to me and I'm not surely adding components for that. The series resistance on the bypass output is kept, isolates capacitive loads and is good for stability.
I'll try to come up with demos and comparisons in the next days. Hope you enjoyed it and let me know your thoughts.
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Post by bajaman »

impressive work :-)
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Post by Manfred »

Great work!
I can fully agree with your statement regarding the development goals. :thumbsup

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Post by dylan159 »

Here's the demo. I like soundcloud's comments for these.

bajaman wrote: 18 Mar 2021, 20:36 impressive work :-)
Thanks, knowing your own contributions here, it means a lot.
Manfred wrote: 19 Mar 2021, 02:31 Great work!
I can fully agree with your statement regarding the development goals. :thumbsup
Thanks, I'm glad they seem sensible to you.
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Post by Frank_NH »

Thanks dylan159 - very interesting analysis. I'm a big Klon(e) fan, and have built several clones and even designed my own version (using a Cornish buffer and a +/- 9V split supply). In fact, I have two on my pedal board!

From your frequency plots of the CC, the response looks to be a little brighter than the Klon and I noticed this in the sound clips. Nothing wrong with that - brighter may be preferred. But I think that part of the Klon's appeal has to do with the nuances of the tone as you go from clean to overdriven.

Interestingly, Anderton's recently posted a video of a "blindfold" Klon shootout they did using a bunch of clones of all price ranges along with a real Klon Centaur in the mix. Although it's hard to really discern tone differences from YouTube videos, I thought most of the clones sound about the same as a real Klon, with only minor differences overall, usually revealed at higher gain. The lowest ranking clones were the EHX Soul Food and the Tone City Bad Horse, which I thought sounded a little harsh at higher gains. Again, for most players, even those may be close enough.

I was thinking about whether the main Klon gain stage (with the two clean branches and the clipping stage) could be "improved" somehow - perhaps one could try making the clean branches active with another op amp. But again, with Klon it all about nuances, so any "improvements" may be scoffed at by the Klon faithful. :)

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Post by dylan159 »

Frank_NH wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 14:51 But again, with Klon it all about nuances, so any "improvements" may be scoffed at by the Klon faithful. :)
Yeah, like I said not even going to try, even if I completely succeeded there would be someone doubting it.
Frank_NH wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 14:51 From your frequency plots of the CC, the response looks to be a little brighter than the Klon and I noticed this in the sound clips. Nothing wrong with that - brighter may be preferred. But I think that part of the Klon's appeal has to do with the nuances of the tone as you go from clean to overdriven.
I don't know, sometimes it feels brighter, sometimes it feels darker. Anyway I can't tell which I like more, so that's a success for me.
Frank_NH wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 14:51 I was thinking about whether the main Klon gain stage (with the two clean branches and the clipping stage) could be "improved" somehow - perhaps one could try making the clean branches active with another op amp.
In a way, they're already active, since they are connected to an active summer. What more do you want to do to them? Supercharge them? :lol: I like to reason in broad strokes, and they don't end up being much more than a flat, clean blend. For me the interesting part is level matching between the clean and distorted sounds, and how the top branch stays fixed while also highpassing the distorted input. I have to admit, alas, that diodes do make a difference for this for the unwary. I haven't tried in depth separate gain pots, but they should be pretty effective as they say.
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Post by Frank_NH »

"What more do you want to do to them? Supercharge them? "

Actually - yes! But combine the clean branches into one as a non-inverting gain stage. But then, of course, it wouldn't be a Klon, but more of a slightly fancy Voodoo Lab Sparkle Drive...

"...haven't tried in depth separate gain pots, but they should be pretty effective as they say."

Check out the VFE Merman, where this idea has been done for the Klon circuit along with some other interesting control ideas.

http://www.vfepedals.com/merman.html

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Post by jeepe »

for completeness' sake, this thread should be linked here, OP by earthtonesaudio:
viewtopic.php?f=13&p=78031#p78031

and the vero layout topic at tagboardeffects blog by IVIark:
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/20 ... bones.html

and the electrosmash circuit analysis:
https://www.electrosmash.com/klon-centaur-analysis

.........................
my personal (no expert) impression is that Dylan's rework is remarkable, among other reasons, cause it
ditches the magic diodes and uses commonly available BAT41s !! :)
pedal building, tracing and sharing is such a beautiful freedom movement... If only it could be viewed as a future heritage, but it really is ephemeral, as it seems

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Post by dylan159 »

jeepe wrote: 10 Sep 2022, 05:41 for completeness' sake, this thread should be linked here, OP by earthtonesaudio:
viewtopic.php?f=13&p=78031#p78031

and the vero layout topic at tagboardeffects blog by IVIark:
https://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com/20 ... bones.html

and the electrosmash circuit analysis:
https://www.electrosmash.com/klon-centaur-analysis

.........................
my personal (no expert) impression is that Dylan's rework is remarkable, among other reasons, cause it
ditches the magic diodes and uses commonly available BAT41s !! :)
Thanks. I won't go into the details of the linked analysis and the slight differences from mine, because I've already made my point in the original post, but I'm glad others have at least thought about it!
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I'll never build a DS-2, for example :)

- -
even though I'm a layman to electronics
I'll never build anything without seeing the actual schematics too...

- -

my all time favorite: Fuzz FAce
it is an always ongoing project..
- -

I want to end up strumming some strings at the end of the day, whatever the sound

- -
I'm so sad that this beautiful culture (and freedom movement) is totally ephemeral
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Post by jeepe »

I think your approach is very cool!

the entire free stomboxes movement is (in one certain regard) like a sinking ship as the parts become less and less available... see J-fets... and Germanium transistors and diodes...

your approach checks this beautifully!
and there is more, cause you don't just want the classic thing (in vintage-fetishist mode), but want to understand it...
and re-create it, if possible / reasonable... or create something new...

you are (kind of) like the digital engineers who recreate classic stuff in digital modeling...
but your approach is healthier, as it is analogue, to start with :)

thus, unlike the digital guys, and the vintage fetishists,
you don't make this free stomboxes movement roll off.. but (like Baja, and others) feed it to revive and roll on :)

BTW:
you don't have a vero layout to this, right?
(cause I'm in the drawing :) )
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Post by dylan159 »

We're linked to obsolete parts only if we keep doing things the same way, without a critical approach.

I like digital modeling, not because of the goal of re-creating existing circuits, but for means to do it in DSP. It's another world, more akin to maths than electronics.

No, I don't have a vero layout of this, maybe you can be the one to make it then!
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Post by andy-h-h »

dylan159 wrote: 11 Sep 2022, 10:22
No, I don't have a vero layout of this, maybe you can be the one to make it then!
I was looking at this on the weekend - I’ll have a layout done in the next couple of days. Looks like an interesting project. Thanks Dylan

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Post by jimilee »

I've been looking at this. To further pair it down, I could leave off C11, R12, and R15 and make it true bypass. Is there any reason it needs to be buffered?

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not totally green, but that's all :)
my "level" is about building a big muff... medium complexity :)

I'll never build a DS-2, for example :)

- -
even though I'm a layman to electronics
I'll never build anything without seeing the actual schematics too...

- -

my all time favorite: Fuzz FAce
it is an always ongoing project..
- -

I want to end up strumming some strings at the end of the day, whatever the sound

- -
I'm so sad that this beautiful culture (and freedom movement) is totally ephemeral
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Post by jeepe »

hi,

as to the vero layout, I had to re-check it before uploading, it is unverified, but I believe it's correct (I do make mistakes, but not often, and I've re-checked it)


I've changed your chosen PSU design, minor change :) as you see, I used a diode in series not to the GND for reverse polarity protection
(I've read opinions, extensively, about the "connect to GND" solution, and accepted that it will not necessarily protect any parts of the circuit, and leave mess when a reverse polarity PSU connection happens)

all files are attached, anyone feel free to adapt it, correct it, etc...

the PDF has the links and holes map, too... the PNG only has the populated board only
(but anyone can export it for themselves)

...........
PS: for anyone editing the DIYLC file, the parts' names are NOT correct, that is, "R2" might be "R2", according to the schematic, but other parts will not match their names in the schematic, so, keep to the VALUES, and don't believe the "NAMES" :)
Attachments
clown-cent--02-0.diy
(106.98 KiB) Downloaded 118 times
clown_centurion-v02-0.png
clown_centurion--v02-0.pdf
this has the CUTS & LINKS map
(60.66 KiB) Downloaded 218 times
illustration-a_dual_gang_pot.pdf
(377.47 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
Last edited by jeepe on 18 Sep 2022, 10:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by dylan159 »

jimilee wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 01:53 I've been looking at this. To further pair it down, I could leave off C11, R12, and R15 and make it true bypass. Is there any reason it needs to be buffered?
Yes you surely can. Don't know if i said it in the original post, but I gave the option of buffered bypass just in case someone was left wanting from the original.
jeepe wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 06:52 hi,

as to the vero layout, I had to re-check it before uploading, it is unverified, but I believe it's correct (I do make mistakes, but not often, and I've re-checked it)


I've changed your chosen PSU design, minor change :) as you see, I used a diode in series not to the GND for reverse polarity protection
Seems like a good layout. You can maybe squeeze it horizontally but there's no need since it will already fit in a B.
You're right about the diode, I usually go for a series Schottky myself, the parallel diode shorts the power supply across itself and one of the two will probably die, hopefully the diode, unless you had a chunky series resistor that will drop more voltage than the Schottky. A thermistor or an active current limit could work but it's more effort than I care to have for this. I used to go parallel diode only when I wanted to squeeze every bit of headroom out of the supply, but this whole thing is about other ways to deal with that.
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not totally green, but that's all :)
my "level" is about building a big muff... medium complexity :)

I'll never build a DS-2, for example :)

- -
even though I'm a layman to electronics
I'll never build anything without seeing the actual schematics too...

- -

my all time favorite: Fuzz FAce
it is an always ongoing project..
- -

I want to end up strumming some strings at the end of the day, whatever the sound

- -
I'm so sad that this beautiful culture (and freedom movement) is totally ephemeral
Location: Budaspest, Europe
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Post by jeepe »

dylan159 wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 07:24
You can maybe squeeze it horizontally but there's no need since it will already fit in a B.

that's what I thought - already fits the B...

dylan159 wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 07:24 You're right about the diode, I usually go for a series Schottky myself, the parallel diode shorts the power supply across itself and one of the two will probably die, hopefully the diode, unless you had a chunky series resistor that will drop more voltage than the Schottky. A thermistor or an active current limit could work but it's more effort than I care to have for this. I used to go parallel diode only when I wanted to squeeze every bit of headroom out of the supply, but this whole thing is about other ways to deal with that.
oh, I should have called it parallel, since it is :)
some months ago I was planning to start using a polyfuse / PPTC / resettable fuse and a parallel diode protection,
by which 0.3V could be saved, a Schottky's Vf, I mean, I was thinking like you concerned about "every bit of the headroom"...
but then in a forum topic, probably here, R.G. made a comment like transistors are heroic like good captains and will die first :) (I couldn't find it now :))
and then again, one can easily use 12V if one wants :)

...............
your approach
...............
anyway, it'd be great if your approach got some "name"... cause it is a fairly clear-cut concept...
an approach which could be taken more and more often...

so, if it had a name, it would reserve it a path in the evolution of guitar circuit making and remaking....
personally, I'd like to see "vintage" in the name or in the description...
like "beyond vintage" (this is not good, just an example), or "substantial vintage", or "reworked vintage" (this is the best, of course :))

the fact that you didn't just make a modified circuit but attached a concept,
and that that concept is not as simple as "use whatever you have" but pretty sophisticated...
makes it possible to lay this down as a new approach which has a name and a description :)

I think a post here at freeestompboxes.org would be a perfect way of publication, after your own website...
lots of circuits could be "reworked" in the future, which otherwise would just fade out as obsolete (using obsolete parts)...
and based on your concept, not "just anything" could be done to the circuits, but there could be a algorithm to follow...

PS:
I'm sorry to have talked about digital modeling in a somewhat degrading manner :) :)
I do have a Zoom B1on, and love Tonelib, but I don't like digital pedals' false appeal on new musicians....
like "why buy many when I can just get one to do all that I need and even more?"
:)
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Post by dylan159 »

jeepe wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 08:11
but then in a forum topic, probably here, R.G. made a comment like transistors are heroic like good captains and will die first :) (I couldn't find it now :))
and then again, one can easily use 12V if one wants :)

...............
your approach
...............
I know you said you can't find it again, but I'm wondering which transistors will die first, maybe it's context specific.

About "my approach", I will give this treatment again to circuits I find particularly offensive and also popular, I'm more interested in things that impress me in other ways lately, maybe some old circuit that all things considered still seems like it features something neat or underappreciated on the schematic level. I still think that most things in electronics have been tried in some way or another, but at the moment I believe that something new can be still found in the particular combinations and tradeoff choices with respect to what's been done.

It's a small thing, but since your layout is a derivative work of my schematic I'd say, can you use my same CC license on it? You can find it here. I appreciate that you've acknowledged me in it and linked to this thread also.
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not totally green, but that's all :)
my "level" is about building a big muff... medium complexity :)

I'll never build a DS-2, for example :)

- -
even though I'm a layman to electronics
I'll never build anything without seeing the actual schematics too...

- -

my all time favorite: Fuzz FAce
it is an always ongoing project..
- -

I want to end up strumming some strings at the end of the day, whatever the sound

- -
I'm so sad that this beautiful culture (and freedom movement) is totally ephemeral
Location: Budaspest, Europe
Has thanked: 625 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Post by jeepe »

dylan159 wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 09:45 It's a small thing, but since your layout is a derivative work of my schematic I'd say, can you use my same CC license on it?
done!


that comment about transistors was made in general....
not as a scientific law but -- as I interpret it -- more like a Murphy's law kind of warning, making it clear that
the order in which parts get damaged during a reverse polarity disaster is unpredictable...

okay, an UPDATE:
here he says: "For most situations and most power supplies, the shunt-reverse diode is OK."

https://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/ ... #msg482485
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jeepe
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not totally green, but that's all :)
my "level" is about building a big muff... medium complexity :)

I'll never build a DS-2, for example :)

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even though I'm a layman to electronics
I'll never build anything without seeing the actual schematics too...

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my all time favorite: Fuzz FAce
it is an always ongoing project..
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I want to end up strumming some strings at the end of the day, whatever the sound

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Post by jeepe »

okay, I have to give up on my loose quotation "transistors will die first", especially as a quotation attributed to R.G. :)
but since I've mentioned him, the best thing seems to be linking his article:
"Advanced Power Switching and Polarity Protection for Effects" by R.G. Keen
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/m ... switch.htm

and as a result of my searching, here are some links about reverse polarity protection (attached as PDF)
Attachments
polarty_protection--links.pdf
(26.33 KiB) Downloaded 140 times
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Post by jimilee »

Sent a PCB to be fabbed. I got no image hosting set up, here's a drop box link.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h3uox0mlbz7du ... n.png?dl=0

I can post the Gerber zip after it's verified. I'll have a few leftover as well.

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