RMC - RMC3 Wah (Geoffrey Teese)

analogguru · Post by **analogguru** » 08 Sep 2007, 06:47

Here is an inside-pic from an older RMC3 Wah:

http://www.stompin-ground.com/pics/rmc/RMCwahs29web.JPG

analogguru

archstanton · Post by **archstanton** » 08 Sep 2007, 16:26

Well, I'm glad that the carbon comp resistors are keep the mojo at the appropriate level...

Post by **modman** » 08 Sep 2007, 16:59

Well, well, ....

"Man sieht nur, was man weiß" could be cloned for this occasion (sorry Theo) into "We only hear, what we we see."

If you put it these switcheable caps and trimpots, and fine tune by ear, you think you hear the differences. Blessed/cursed with out-of-the ordinary hearing or not...

Geoffrey Teese · Post by **Geoffrey Teese** » 08 Sep 2007, 19:11

FYI-Over the years I've offered my RMC3 with a choice of carbon film, carbon comp, and metal film resistors, with metal film being the "Normal" way they went out. The vast majority of requests were for carbon comp so that is what I changed to.

If you bother to read my site, there are almost no component references at all. I don't sell hype or mojo.

Peace, Love, and Wah,
Geoffrey R. Teese

archstanton · Post by **archstanton** » 08 Sep 2007, 19:29

So you switched to inferior carbon comps just because the buyers wanted them? I reckon that the buyers want carbon comps due to the mojo attributed to them by other builders who do traffic in such hype, even though we've seen it dispelled by RG Keen:
http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/carbo ... oncomp.htm

So while you're not personally hyping them, by not sticking to a superior component, you're passively facilitating the continued silliness that surrounds "magical components."

Would you use all ceramics if the customers demanded them? Or RadioShack input jacks?

Geoffrey Teese · Post by **Geoffrey Teese** » 08 Sep 2007, 19:37

Gee, you know, I don't use Radio Shack parts so I guess there won't be any demand for them based on public opinion about my products.

Is there something bad about catering to customers???

Strawman arguments. Hmm. Must be a Republican...

Peace, Love, and Wah,
Geoffrey

JHS · Post by **JHS** » 08 Sep 2007, 19:46

CC sound different compared to MF or CF and if you use Bradley's they won't be noisier than MF, but they can warm up the sound a lot. There's no mojo with CC and CC withstand mechanical vibrations way better than CF or MF. Actual CC are real good, it's not the cheap CC-crap that was made in the early days.

Even Barber and Landgraff use them due to customers demand and I use them too.

Real boutique business is to give customers what they asked for ...

JHS

claus h · Post by **claus h** » 08 Sep 2007, 20:55

Here is no voodoo in carbon comp resistors they do sound diffrent ! just not in every circuit, and not everywhere in the circuit you need to know where the make a diffrence and where a metal film would be a better choice!!

Claus

analogguru · Post by **analogguru** » 08 Sep 2007, 21:22

CC sound different compared to MF or CF and if you use Bradley's ...

Here is no voodoo in carbon comp resistors they do sound diffrent ! just not in every circuit, and not everywhere in the circuit you need to know where the make a difference....

Hmmm....maybe somebody can explain this to me...?
and "where to know the difference..." ?

If I listen to the soundclips here:
http://www.mrdwab.com/john/soundclipspage.html
then I must say most of them listen like sh*t, and this is not caused by the player and/or his skills...

And I don´t believe that this sh*t-sounding stuff will get better with the use of carbon comp resistors.

Please proof to me, that a carbon-comp will improve the sound of a sh*tty-fuzzy-circuit at least a little bit.....
And then please proof to me, that the resistor - from which you believe that it is CC - in reality is not CF....

This would help me, that in the future I will not replace every resistor by a wire-wound type. "...wire-wound resistors will give the real warmth cause of their inductivity... and with their higher power-rating you can use higher currents which causes the resistor to "warm-up" - which naturally is audible... "

analogguru

claus h · Post by **claus h** » 08 Sep 2007, 21:46

analogguru wrote:
CC sound different compared to MF or CF and if you use Bradley's ...

Here is no voodoo in carbon comp resistors they do sound diffrent ! just not in every circuit, and not everywhere in the circuit you need to know where the make a difference....
Hmmm....maybe somebody can explain this to me...?
and "where to know the difference..." ?

If I listen to the soundclips here:
http://www.mrdwab.com/john/soundclipspage.html
then I must say most of them listen like sh*t, and this is not caused by the player and/or his skills...

And I don´t believe that this sh*t-sounding stuff will get better with the use of carbon comp resistors.

Please proof to me, that a carbon-comp will improve the sound of a sh*tty-fuzzy-circuit at least a little bit.....
And then please proof to me, that the resistor - from which you believe that it is CC - in reality is not CF....

This would help me, that in the future I will not replace every resistor by a wire-wound type. "...wire-wound resistors will give the real warmth cause of their inductivity... and with their higher power-rating you can use higher currents which causes the resistor to "warm-up" - which naturally is audible... "

analogguru

Test it out yourself !! get a tube screamer try to replace some resistors and see that you get out of it!! Can't explane why they sound diffrent but they do in the right places in the curcuit!!! Got for it you will learn someting..

Give someone a fish and you feed him for a day
Teach someone to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Later
Claus

soulsonic · Post by **soulsonic** » 08 Sep 2007, 21:46

The board in that pic looks like the ones that wah-wah.co.uk sells.

Anyway, Carbon Comp resistors sound different because of the higher noise and because of the frequency spectrum of that noise. This is because of the intermodulation of that noise with the guitar signal as it passes through the circuit. This tonal change due to the modulation of the signal with the noise is analogous to tonal differences of different styles of Dither noise used in digital recording systems. Each "flavor" of dither has a different tonal effect on the overall recording because of how it mixes in and modulates the main signal. I believe carbon comp resistors, and any other noise-inducing components, have a very similar impact on the overall tonality of a circuit. The lack of inductance in composition type resistors is also a factor to be considered when looking at sonic effect, though personally, I believe it's the noise that has the greatest impact. What sounds "good" is ultimately a matter of personal taste.

archstanton · Post by **archstanton** » 08 Sep 2007, 21:56

JHS · Post by **JHS** » 08 Sep 2007, 22:04

I just checked CC vs MF in a SHO-clone (only the 10M), with CC the sound was a bit more middy and had a bit less but clearer treble. When I switch between those Rs I can hear a slight difference, not much but audible.

I prefer wirewound and MF Rs too and use 1W CC only in some places in a OD/dist-circuit to fatten the tone a bit. I don't recommend to use them in HIFI-circuits, they color the sound to much.

CC add some color to the tone, nothing more, in an already muddy sounding FF maybe to much yielding in even more mud.

It's the same with ceramic caps, they sound harsh compared to polys but I use them in a circuit if I want to add some grit or sparkle to the tone.

All in all it's a matter of taste

JHS

analogguru · Post by **analogguru** » 08 Sep 2007, 22:27

Test it out yourself !! get a tube screamer try to replace some resistors and see that you get out of it!! Can't explane why they sound diffrent but they do in the right places in the curcuit!!! Got for it you will learn someting..

I have several tubescreamers, but saorry I wouldn´t even think about a "TS-808 conversion" which would make more sense than CC-resistors

And concerning tonal change I have to say that I read so many bullsh*t what should "influence the sound" but in reality isn´t possible to have more influence than a placebo on a sick person that I won´t give it a chance. There are things which are able to influence the sound of a TS much more than a CC-, CF-, or MF- resistor.... But maybe the 10% tolerance of CC makes the significant "sound differrence". Maybe I should try this with a CF-Trimmer.....which resistors are to change in a TS ?

All this together doesnt givre an answer to the question:
"When a Overdrive/Distortion/Fuzz sounds 100% like sh*t, how much influence do have the CC-resistors ? Does it after the mod now sound 99,9 % sh*tty, only 90% sh*tty or even only 80% sh*tty ?

But isn´t 80% sh*tty also sh*tty ?

Sorry, maybe this is my old-fashioned taste, but most of the samples sound dirty and harsh....maybe this is fashion now, but it still will sound that dirty and harsh, that it doesn´t matter if CC makes it a little bit "warmer", "middy" or what else.

my opinion,
analogguru

claus h · Post by **claus h** » 08 Sep 2007, 22:49

analogguru wrote:
Test it out yourself !! get a tube screamer try to replace some resistors and see that you get out of it!! Can't explane why they sound diffrent but they do in the right places in the curcuit!!! Got for it you will learn someting..
I have several tubescreamers, but saorry I wouldn´t even think about a "TS-808 conversion" which would make more sense than CC-resistors

And concerning tonal change I have to say that I read so many bullsh*t what should "influence the sound" but in reality isn´t possible to have more influence than a placebo on a sick person that I won´t give it a chance. There are things which are able to influence the sound of a TS much more than a CC-, CF-, or MF- resistor.... But maybe the 10% tolerance of CC makes the significant "sound differrence". Maybe I should try this with a CF-Trimmer.....which resistors are to change in a TS ?

All this together doesnt givre an answer to the question:
"When a Overdrive/Distortion/Fuzz sounds 100% like sh*t, how much influence do have the CC-resistors ? Does it after the mod now sound 99,9 % sh*tty, only 90% sh*tty or even only 80% sh*tty ?

But isn´t 80% sh*tty also sh*tty ?

Sorry, maybe this is my old-fashioned taste, but most of the samples sound dirty and harsh....maybe this is fashion now, but it still will sound that dirty and harsh, that it doesn´t matter if CC makes it a little bit "warmer", "middy" or what else.

my opinion,
analogguru

Hmmm are you calling me a sick person!! ?? If so! that is not the way to get any help from me!!!

If not..
I can only say go for it, why not try it for yourself instead of basing your knowles on "somebody told me this on a forum" I did not belive it myself but it does make a diffrence not 80% or any % and not the tollrance I match my carbon comp before use! a lot of them are scraped.. I had a coulpe of CC resistors and metal film resistors on a switch so you could compare the CC and the MF, and the CC was a bit softer..

bajaman · Post by **bajaman** » 08 Sep 2007, 23:12

I think JHS explained it very well - CC = rolled off top end ( gives impression of stronger midrange)
Ceramic caps = stronger top end gives the impression of sharper sparklier sound
thanks
bajaman

archstanton · Post by **archstanton** » 08 Sep 2007, 23:49

It's so subjective that nearly any claim can be made, then when you don't hear it... well, that just exposes your poor ear for tone!

soulsonic · Post by **soulsonic** » 09 Sep 2007, 00:20

Hey, I explained what happens in an objective way. I don't care what kind of resistors anyone uses.

I put things into two categories: circuits that sound good and circuits that sound bad. And "good" and "bad" are according to my personal taste not anyone else's - in fact, the whole reason why I learned how to design and build electronics (and am still learning...) is because my personal idea of "good" seldom equals what most manufacturers think is "good". I learned how to do it myself, so I could get that good sound out of my head and into that little box on the floor or that big box sitting on the speakers. That's what this is all about to me - I DIY because NO ONE builds the products I want.

Post by **modman** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:12

claus h wrote: I can only say go for it, why not try it for yourself instead of basing your knowles on "somebody told me this on a forum" I did not believe it myself but it does make a diffrence not 80% or any % and not the tollrance I match my carbon comp before use! a lot of them are scraped.. I had a coulpe of CC resistors and metal film resistors on a switch so you could compare the CC and the MF, and the CC was a bit softer..

If you correctly match up resistors, and there is a difference in sound, there is a technical reason. If you put two carbon 1/4w resistors in series to make up the value of one 1/4w metal film, it's clearly another factor that changes the sound - heat dissipation ? But do you really hear that? Did you do a blind test? Why does nobody with a scope report these difference?

What do you mean with "scraped?"

And I didn't call you anything. Just out of precaution...

claus h · Post by **claus h** » 09 Sep 2007, 13:22

modman wrote:
claus h wrote: I can only say go for it, why not try it for yourself instead of basing your knowles on "somebody told me this on a forum" I did not believe it myself but it does make a diffrence not 80% or any % and not the tollrance I match my carbon comp before use! a lot of them are scraped.. I had a coulpe of CC resistors and metal film resistors on a switch so you could compare the CC and the MF, and the CC was a bit softer..
If you correctly match up resistors, and there is a difference in sound, there is a technical reason. If you put two carbon 1/4w resistors in series to make up the value of one 1/4w metal film, it's clearly another factor that changes the sound - heat dissipation ? But do you really hear that? Did you do a blind test? Why does nobody with a scope report these difference?

What do you mean with "scraped?"

And I didn't call you anything. Just out of precaution...

scrap-ed not used ! value is way off, You can't see these diffrences on a scope !! not in any test i know off, no heat dissipation that really matters, small signal! and yes i did do a blind test!! Belive me I was the biggers sceptics on this subject, but i did get a diffrent view on it after doing tests, A lot of things sound diffrent, buffers build to similar specs with Bipolar transistors will sound diffrent then a FET, diffrent opamps sound diffrent, capacitors sound diffrent, resistors too..

By the way I am a trained electronic enginer and have been workin in the business for over 10 years, belive me would be easier if specs always = sound but they don't, really frustraing but that's life..