Analogman - TS9/808/Silver Mod  [traced]

General documentation, gut shot, schematic links, ongoing circuit tracing, deep thoughts ... all about boutique stompboxes.
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vanessa
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Post by vanessa »

I got one of these off ebay a few years back. I loved it but got rid of it when I stopped using it after a while. I figured I would just build my own.
I photographed the guts just in case I needed reference but when I eventually built my own I could not find the photos anywhere. I remember it had the "silver" mods. I think that was just replacing the tant caps for Panasonic electros?

The one setting I really liked was the + setting. From Mike's site:

+ : A bit louder than a TS808, with stronger low-mid range and less highs. Also not quite as much distortion.

If I could get this one to just have one tone it would be that one. Any info on these mods? Maybe an original Ibanez TS9DX schematic?

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Post by JHS »

TS-9 DX (stock unit


"TS9"(Normal) mode(for comparison): .047uF mylar w/two small signal Si diodes
"+" mode: 0.22uF polarized electrolytic w/four small signal Si diodes--two for the top of the waveform, two for bottom (these look the same as the ones used for the normal setting)
"Hot" mode: 1uF polarized electrolytic w/pair of LEDs(w/a 470k in parallel w/the LEDs)
"Turbo" mode: 2.2uF polarized electrolytic w/no diodes(seemed odd but it does look open)
-the 4.7k and 51k are unchanged for all modes

Info is from Dai Hirokawa.

Analogman does some slight diode mod and his normal part change.
I can't find the info about this mod, yet, but as far as I remember I read something about the details of the mod on Analogman's website or on the Keeley site.

JHS

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Post by vanessa »

I found this information on the stock TS9DX:
"TS9"(Normal) mode(for comparison): .047uF mylar w/two small signal Si diodes
"+" mode: 0.22uF polarized electrolytic w/four small signal Si diodes--two for the top of the waveform, two for bottom (these look the same as the ones used for the normal setting)
"Hot" mode: 1uF polarized electrolytic w/pair of LEDs(w/a 470k in parallel w/the LEDs)
"Turbo" mode: 2.2uF polarized electrolytic w/no diodes(seemed odd but it does look open)
-the 4.7k and 51k are unchanged for all modes
But I'm thinking the version I had came with his "mods mode" switch. Ugh!!! I wish I wrote that stuff down.
Here is what he has for that:

+ MODE: Some more low end, as used on most boutique TS808 clones. Bass strings will not mush out even playing fast. Not as much additional low end as stock + MODE, and we keep clipping diodes stock.[/i]

I think he is saying that he uses a .1uf "as used on most boutique TS808 clones" in place of the .047uf. But not the .22uf as found on the stock + mode.
Then I'm thinking he just switches in a third 1N4148 for the asymmetrical clipping:

HOT MODE: Same low end as our + MODE but with Boss style asymmetrical clipping for more crunch, attack, and harmonics, and a bit more volume. Similar to our BOSS SD-1/808 but a bit more low end.

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Post by vanessa »

Ahhh you beat me to it. I was writing while you posted. Thank though JHS!

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Post by vanessa »

JHS wrote: Analogman does some slight diode mod and his normal part change.
I can't find the info about this mod, yet, but as far as I remember I read something about the details of the mod on Analogman's website or on the Keeley site.

JHS
If I still had those gut shots I would know what he used. I don't remember if there was a 1N400x, germanium, or just three diodes Boss like for the asymmetrical clipping. I kind of think that he just switches in an extra 1N4148 or 1N914 or switches one out. In the stock + mode there is 4 clipping diodes. I take it that the "mods mode" rids the unit of this arrangement only having 2 diodes for the stock mode. Then in + mode switches in the .1uf cap (or a second cap in parallel to get .1uf or close). The Hot mode is just switching in a third diode (what type?) for asymmetrical clipping. Finally Turbo mode switches out the diodes completely and may add a larger cap?

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Post by vanessa »

vanessa wrote: I think he is saying that he uses a .1uf "as used on most boutique TS808 clones" in place of the .047uf. But not the .22uf as found on the stock + mode.
I was reading a little more, and I think this part on his site confirms that he uses the .22uf on his non-mod modes TS9/TS808DX.
it does not need the MODE MODS which are tailored to electric guitar.[/b]
The .22uf cap is what a lot of people (Fooltone Bass Dive etc., Fooler also puts a .068 in place of the .22uf tant) use to mod TS's for use with basses.

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Post by neilnil »

Hi, it's my first post. I've got a lot of information from you guys and always hoped to contribute in some ways. I'm from South Korea, sorry about my bad English. :oops:

I kept one for several years and preferred it over other thousands of TS clones and even an original TS9 from the 80s. When I was into DIY, I wanted to build it but couldn't find any useful information. Finally I traced mine and figured out what's going on.

I found it's more about upgrading components than tweaking. There was only one change in value, replacing 27nF input cap with 47nF, other values were stock TS808. AM uses carbon comp resistors in the signal path and Panasonic poly film caps except 47nF and 51pF caps in the first opamp stage. Those two caps were left in stock. (hmm, no silver mica here?) The 10uF electrolytic output cap was green Nichicon Muse 16V, 85'C. Other two electrolytic caps were Oscons by Sanyo but I have no idea if they are original. And the opamp is JRC4558D of course!

Now I see why nobody was trying to build this one; It's no more than a TS808! :roll: I also have a gut shot but I don't think you need it. Hope this helps.

Jun

--------------

Sorry I thought those film caps were Panasonic just by their shape and color but I'm not sure. Two Oscon electrolytic caps seem to be part of AM's mod. So what he replaced should be 5 CCs, 7 film caps and 3 electrolytics.

Jun
Last edited by neilnil on 17 Sep 2007, 17:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by soulsonic »

Mouser sells Nichicon, but they don't carry the Muse line. I wish it were easier to get the Muse at good bulk prices.
Of course, I also wish we could get Rubycon Black Gate caps easily.....

Thank you for sharing this info. It is interesting to see that just changing the composition of the signal components is enough to make a difference.

I personally upgrade components too; I ALWAYS remove tantalum caps if they are used for coupling, and replace them with either film or bipolar electrolytics. It makes a very noticeable difference to me - much smoother and more "hi-fi".
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Post by vanessa »

neilnil wrote:I also have a gut shot but I don't think you need it. Hope this helps.

Jun
Thank you, and welcome! Gut shots are always cool, who knows what one might need a photo for down the road. Please post.

8)

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Post by neilnil »

vanessa wrote:
neilnil wrote:I also have a gut shot but I don't think you need it. Hope this helps.
Jun
Thank you, and welcome! Gut shots are always cool, who knows what one might need a photo for down the road. Please post.
8)
No problem!
Jun
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Post by freedreamer »

neilnil wrote: .....replacing 27nF input cap with 47nF, .........
only this replace?!

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Post by neilnil »

freedreamer wrote:
neilnil wrote: .....replacing 27nF input cap with 47nF, .........
only this replace?!
Oh I forgot it, the carbon comp resistor between output and ground is measured at around 11k instead of 10k. Is this the magic, maybe? 8)

Jun

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Post by analogguru »

....the carbon comp resistor between output and ground...
:shock: No.... please tell me that this mojo is not true....

....a pulldown carbon-comp for mojo-sound....

analogguru
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Post by JHS »

I spotted 5 1/4W CC and just compared the sound with a 10k CC against a 10k MF in the outpur RC-combi on a clone. There is a small difference in tone, IMHO with the MF it sounds somewhat thinner, colder with clearer highs.

Barber wrote in a HIFI-forum that resistors made of different materials alter the tone. Caps made of different matrials alter the tone too, so why not Rs....

JHS

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Post by analogguru »

Film-capacitors are a lot of thin wounded foils, so they contain also some inductance which have a reasonable effect o higher frequencies (in the MHz range). An important parameter is tan delta.

Ceramic capacitors hace much less inductance so they have a better behaviour at higher frequencies up to more than 1 GHz. But ceramic capacitors don´t like overloading. when the are overloaded they react with distortion (similar to an overloaded piezo-tweeter).

So we have a reason for capacitors to MAYBE sound different. The same with coils, if airwounded, with iron core or ferrite core can mkae a difference - if audible is written on another piece of paper.

And now: what is the reason for a resistor to produce more bottom ?
Which parameter is different between a metalfilm and a carbon-composite that could influence the sound - audible ? Especially as an pull-down resistor after an electrolytic ?
The output impedance of the buffer is about 100 Ohm (depending on the hfe (ß) of the transistor. The reactance of a electrolytic capacitor with 10µF at a frequency of 400 Hz is about 40 Ohm. So it doesn´t make an audible difference if the pulldown is 8k2 or 15 k.... :roll:

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Post by wagn »

bump. so what are the values of the Oscons? where are they located in the TS schematic?

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/electron ... nezts9.gif

I wonder if using these Oscons in other TS type pedals make a big difference. Analogman seems to think so:

"In addition to several capacitors in the signal path, we also use special high end audio power supply filter capacitors. This lets your hard overdriven attacks (especially on the low strings) come through without mushing out, while soft, clean notes will still come out smoothly with no alterations. There is less compression to the sound, more note articulation. The entire sound is fuller and richer, with an emphasis on picking attack. Ohbayashi san has made his TS-808 clones using six 1.5V AAA batteries inside (see the RE-J on his web site!) to get this type of tone, but we found that these special power capacitors will give the same benefit in tone without having to lug around a box of batteries! These power capacitors work and sound best after they are "formed" at working voltage, so the tone of the pedal may improve with use. The spec sheets for the power caps we use state that the characteristics are stabilized after 100 hours of running. Or simply leave it connected to a power adaptor overnight to get all the caps happy, and use it often, for best tone! These capacitors are specifically designed to work well at the high frequencies of digital switching power supplies like the Power-All and One Spot. These power supplies can cause some noise with some pedals, but our silver mod should filter any noise out."

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Post by modman »

AM seems to emphasis switching out components for quality's sake because he cannot find any improvements to the circuit. Maybe that's an intelligent conclusion. Other made the same one. But don't be fooled by the importance of component brands, have a look at

Big 'Mojo Components Debunking' thread

Just added Orman's laws to that thread ...

:D
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Post by JimiB »

so what are the values of the Oscons? where are they located in the TS schematic?
they are the 47uf and 100uf on the far left of the schematic by the battery.

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Post by Dave Simpson »

hndme (Handmade Electronics) has the Muse series caps if anyone is looking for them in the USA. :)

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Post by soulsonic »

Dave Simpson wrote:hndme (Handmade Electronics) has the Muse series caps if anyone is looking for them in the USA. :)
Thank you very much! There's some nice stuff there. :D
Muse bipolars, mmmm... - I know what I'll be getting when my Rubycon stash runs out!

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