Marshall - Supa Fuzz (196x) [gut shot picture thread]

Discussion regarding early stompbox technology: 1960-1975 Please keep discussion focused and contribute what info you have...
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Post by Electric Warrior »

LucifersTrip wrote:
I also converted from the 10uF version (with no .01uF cap to ground at the input) - to the 5uF version which DOES include the .01uF to ground at input. I like the results! Not a big difference but the 5uF version seems to have more treble and a bit less boomy/woofy-ness.
then I believe you're closer to a SOL TB MKII
I think the 10uF version is the later version, right? And the 5uF version was the first/earlier version?
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=751&start=100#p179392
Right. 5µF is the Sola Sound made version. The Sola Sound made Supas got the same boards as the MKII Tone Benders and Vox MKIIs.

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Post by JVanDe7 »

From the D*A*M site...
The main production Supa Fuzz from 1966 through 1967/68 was made almost in exactly the same way as a Sola Sound MKII, the only difference being that some units had a limiting resistor on the Filter control so the amount of fuzz could only ever reach 90% saturation. A part from this the MKII and Sola Sound made Supa Fuzz were identical.

I wish I could find the page I'm looking for right now but I can't. It had a handful of different Supa Fuzzes and listed the values of the parts. It just showed the different types that have been found and some had 5uF and some had 10uF but I get what you're saying - the 10uf's are what really makes it sound different from a standard MKII.

*As far as radio interference, I'm not shitting you, I was pulling in some serious radio signals even while it was boxed up and screwed shut and everything. I was told that the .01uF cap to ground at input helps cut radio interference but maybe I was misinformed? It would make sense though because I was getting intolerable amounts of interference without the cap but once I switched to 4.7uF caps and added the .01uF cap the radio interference was completely eliminated.
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Post by JVanDe7 »

@Lucifers - I did try a 138 in Q1 instead of the 70. It didn't work very well at all but maybe I would have to really change my boas setup to accomodate? All I did was pull the 70 out, drop the 138, but no matter where I set my bias knob I was unable to get anything usable. The bias sounded way off. I didn't want to screw around with desoldering resistors so I just said piss on it and put the 70 back in Q1. I plan to mess around with it and see how it goes. If I find the fuzztones to be too similar to my Soul Bender clone then I'll probably experiment with added one or both of the 10uF caps back in there. Do I have to match those up? In other words, what if I used one 5uF and one 10uF? Just to split the difference? Would it add 50% of the bassy/boomy/woofy character back?
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Post by Electric Warrior »

JVanDe7 wrote:From the D*A*M site...
The main production Supa Fuzz from 1966 through 1967/68 was made almost in exactly the same way as a Sola Sound MKII, the only difference being that some units had a limiting resistor on the Filter control so the amount of fuzz could only ever reach 90% saturation. A part from this the MKII and Sola Sound made Supa Fuzz were identical.

I wish I could find the page I'm looking for right now but I can't. It had a handful of different Supa Fuzzes and listed the values of the parts. It just showed the different types that have been found and some had 5uF and some had 10uF but I get what you're saying - the 10uf's are what really makes it sound different from a standard MKII.
That piece of information is totally outdated.
The Sola Sound Tone Benders had the limiting resistor, too. David happened to come across the only small board (i.e. souped up MK1.5; these don't have the 0.01µF at the input) unit that I know of that doesn't have it :)
Haven't seen a large board Sola Sound with the 100Ω, though. Not sure if they exist or if they only modded 1.5s to make Sola branded MKIIs during that time.
Only the earliest of the Sola made Supa Fuzzes have the 100Ω. They usually have 12k resistors instead of 10k, too.

The circuit went through a number of changes over the time that Sola Sound made it. They dropped the 100Ω pretty soon. Shortly after they increased the value of the power filter cap to 50µF by installing a second one in parallel. Then they used 0.015µF caps for a while. During that time they ran out of the 25µF Wimas used for power filtering and replaced them with a 64µF cap. After they had returned to 0.01µFs again they abandoned the OC75s and Impex s3-1ts and used OC81Ds instead. OC81D units have 100k resistors at Q1's base and Q2's collector instead of the 10k and 47k used for OC75/S3-1T units and a 50µF power filter cap (apparently they had switched to a different brand of electrolytics once again).
The last of the OC81Ds units have no 0.01µF between collector and ground.

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Post by JVanDe7 »

Man, sometimes it seems futile to try to duplicate some of these vintage fuzz circuits. So many different variations out there. And tons of conflicting info on the web. I guess since I've never played/heard an original unit (except for youtube) it doesn't really matter all that much. You can get an idea of what something should sound like from a youtube video but it's far from a perfect source. I feel like there's a lot missing when you're dealing with mediocre quality audio played through computer speakers, not to mention it's all subject to the quality of the recording equipment used, etc. So many variables...

:hmmm:
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Post by phibes »

Electric Warrior wrote:The stuff that really annoys me are the errors in the Fuzzcentral schematics :mrgreen:
Agreed. It'd be nice to have a blog with some gut shots and schematics of all the different variations. I'd put it together, I just never organized gut shots of anything.
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Post by JVanDe7 »

Interesting development... probably should have started out with a fresh 9v power source... instead I used what I had laying around because I didn't feel like running to the store. Turns out the battery I've been using was down to about 8.2 volts so I went out and bought a big pack of new ones. Popped in a fresh battery and the pedal sounds noticeably different. More lively and "tight". It still sounds good but now I'm wondering if I would prefer the 10uF caps back in there. Maybe the low battery was causing the average fuzztones? Maybe I should set it back to Marshall specs and see what I think about it with a fresh power source?

*Also, at what point do you all consider a 9v battery ready to be replaced? (for fuzz pedal purposes)
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Post by LucifersTrip »

JVanDe7 wrote:Interesting development... probably should have started out with a fresh 9v power source... instead I used what I had laying around because I didn't feel like running to the store. Turns out the battery I've been using was down to about 8.2 volts so I went out and bought a big pack of new ones. Popped in a fresh battery and the pedal sounds noticeably different. More lively and "tight". It still sounds good but now I'm wondering if I would prefer the 10uF caps back in there. Maybe the low battery was causing the average fuzztones? Maybe I should set it back to Marshall specs and see what I think about it with a fresh power source?
do you remember the DAM post? that's why I breadboarded with my Danelectro supply that puts out 9.69v

http://dam.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php ... or+voltage
"The original batteries used in the MKII's and its variants were PP4's (Eveready 226) which also read high at around the 9.6V level."
I did try a 138 in Q1 instead of the 70. It didn't work very well at all but maybe I would have to really change my boas setup to accomodate? All I did was pull the 70 out, drop the 138, but no matter where I set my bias knob I was unable to get anything usable.
with my setup, I didn't have to alter any bias when changing the gain of Q1. Q3C voltage didn't change. Q1 hfe basically acted as a drive/attack as long as I didn't increase the leakage along with the hfe.
...added one or both of the 10uF caps back in there. Do I have to match those up? In other words, what if I used one 5uF and one 10uF? Just to split the difference? Would it add 50% of the bassy/boomy/woofy character back?
funny that you ask...before soldering I decided to hear the difference with a 5uf up front. much sharper...a thick fuzz that actually cuts...killer. then I replaced the 10uf from Q3's emitter and it was just too thin on the higher strings. so, I'm actually gonna go with a spdt switch to choose between 10uf and 5uf/.01uf at the input

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Post by LucifersTrip »

phibes wrote:
Electric Warrior wrote:The stuff that really annoys me are the errors in the Fuzzcentral schematics :mrgreen:
Agreed. It'd be nice to have a blog with some gut shots and schematics of all the different variations. I'd put it together, I just never organized gut shots of anything.
it's the Fuzzcentral voltages (4.5v) that have burned more people than anything else!

I would be happy to just see the different schematics in chronological order with sample voltages...on one clean page. I think that should at least be do-able...all the info is probably already here spread among a few threads.

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Post by JVanDe7 »

I decided to keep the .01 to ground at input, and keep the 5uf input, but I switched the other 5uf back to 10uf and it's the perfect combo for my taste. Just wanted to throw that out there. Hybrid mix of the 5uf and 10uf versions.
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Post by LucifersTrip »

JVanDe7 wrote:I decided to keep the .01 to ground at input, and keep the 5uf input, but I switched the other 5uf back to 10uf and it's the perfect combo for my taste. Just wanted to throw that out there. Hybrid mix of the 5uf and 10uf versions.
exactly...just what I wrote that I kept in my post above. 2 x 5uF's was a bit thin.

a switch between 10uf/10uf and 5uf,.01uf/10uF is my final version. since the 5uF and .01uF are tied together at the input, you can do the switch a simple spdt

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Post by JVanDe7 »

Yep - just as you mentioned.

I'll think about trying that switch mod but I'm short on room in the enclosure. It's the really tiny size and I've already added a pot for bias, so I may be able to work it out but I don't know if it's worth the hassle. I think I like it just as it is. Maybe when I get bored with it and feel like tinkering... :P
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Post by LucifersTrip »

JVanDe7 wrote:Yep - just as you mentioned.

I'll think about trying that switch mod but I'm short on room in the enclosure. It's the really tiny size and I've already added a pot for bias, so I may be able to work it out but I don't know if it's worth the hassle. I think I like it just as it is. Maybe when I get bored with it and feel like tinkering... :P
yeah, I probably wouldn't worry about it. I did like the difference, but I mainly installed the switch so I could have the original circuit if I wanted...I just used a 1590bb with the 3 knobs (1 bias) and 1 switch straight across

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Post by JVanDe7 »

Right on. Where you used a BB size, I used a regular B size. Or is it a 1290? I don't know but it's not nearly as wide as the BB is, and shorter height too. So it was a stretch to fit a board with radial caps and 3 socketed Ge trannies, and then 3 pots and all that jazz. I have modest tools/skills, at best, lol :mrgreen:
But thanks for your idea/info on the hybrid mixture of 5uf/10uf. That's the way to go for sure. Now I just need to try to find some higher gain Ge to experiment with...
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Post by LucifersTrip »

JVanDe7 wrote:Right on. Where you used a BB size, I used a regular B size. Or is it a 1290? I don't know but it's not nearly as wide as the BB is, and shorter height too. So it was a stretch to fit a board with radial caps and 3 socketed Ge trannies, and then 3 pots and all that jazz. I have modest tools/skills, at best, lol :mrgreen:
yeah, it'd be a lot tougher for you. you could actually throw a switch in instead of an LED...that's if you were gonna put an LED in at all...
But thanks for your idea/info on the hybrid mixture of 5uf/10uf. That's the way to go for sure.
if you ever want to do it in the future, this is all i did. it didn't take up any extra space on the perf since I put all input caps in a straight line on one row

Image
Now I just need to try to find some higher gain Ge to experiment with...
all the 2SB459's I checked were 120-250 with relatively low leakage...that's one Q to keep an eye out for...

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Post by LucifersTrip »

sorry...just realized the above is the first ver I did that gives you 10uf/.01, 5uf/.01

i needed a dpdt to switch between 10uf & 5uf/.01, since I needed the 2nd pole to disconnect the .01uf

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Post by JVanDe7 »

Update: I've basically switched my Supa Fuzz into an MKII Pro except for the 10uF output cap. I changed R1 to 100k and changed the 470 ohm to a 1K. It has much more volume on tap this way, and gain too. When it was in Supa Fuzz form it was a little too wimpy for me. Both of my guitars use low output pickups compared to modern standards. Just wanted to share. After lots of experimenting, I've basically settled on an MKII Pro with the final 4.7uF cap beefed up to 10uF instead.
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Post by JVanDe7 »

I think what it came down to was my transistors, partially. I bought a nice Tone Bender set from Small Bear, so they sound best in a Tone Bender circuit. The higher gain Q's that were mentioned recently in this thread are probably the key to a good sounding Supa (as was suggested by the folks using them). But if you don't have those high gain Ge trannies, the MKII Pro is probably the way to go.

*Question- can anyone shed some light on what the two resistors do? You know, the two resistors that need to be changed (along with some caps) to switch between a MKKI Pro and a Supa Fuzz? In the Supa they are 10K and 470 ohm. But in the MKII Pro they are 100K and 1K. I realize that the 100K/1K (MKII Pro) seems to be a higher output/gain circuit but I'm just curious what the explanation is. Thanks.
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Post by phibes »

The MKII pro was 10K/470R. 100K was used with OC81D variants. I've never seen 1K in place of the 470R in the MKII family. That's just a mod people do.
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Post by JVanDe7 »

I was following this schematic from GGG...
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf ... _sc_pg.pdf

I guess they were mistaken then when they created that schem. Wouldn't be the first time. But I built an MKII Pro several years ago using a GGG board/schematic and it sounded fantastic (to me) so I wanted to duplicate that - and I think I have.
“Walk tall, kick ass, learn to speak Arabic, love music and never forget you come from a long line of truth seekers, lovers and warriors.”
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