New member and "stupid" question about Fuzz Face trannies

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 16 Dec 2009, 12:46

Hi everyone

First of all sorry about my english, i'm spanish and, well, i'm sure that eventually i'll write something hard to understand

I have a question about Fuzz Face that maybe it's kind of noob.
I'm a newbie and i'm about making my frist build. I was thinking to make a LPB-1 or something similar, but I love fuzz pedals, and everyone seems to agree that a FF is a good starting point, as it doesn't require lots of parts and is easy to build.

But my question is, what's up with the trannies? I mean, yeah, I know you can use Germanium or Silicon, and Silicon semms like the "easy" choice, but the way I see it is a little hard to decide wich ones to use. Some of them are expensive (at least here) like 8 dollars for a Si transistor, and i've read everywhere that untill you dont' put them together you won't be sure if they sound nice.

Sooo... yeah, kind of confused

Is there any possibility to make a FF or similar substituing the trannies for something else? Or can a build a good sounding FF for cheap being sure that the transistors will sound nice together?

Thanks and sorry if that was stupid....

Post by **abfackeln** » 16 Dec 2009, 12:55

Not stupid questions, really.....

There are several places on the web that sell matched sets of transistors for Fuzz Face-type circuits, which removes the guesswork for beginners (and veterans alike) and ensures that you'll get reasonable and consistent results. Check out http://www.smallbearelec.com/ or http://www.banzaieffects.com/. I'm sure there's other places out there that do the same.
As far as substituting something else in place of the trannies, well then that may be another pedal altogether......

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:06

Hey, thanks for the quick answer.

About substituting the trannies well, I love Fuzz, but I like trying different stuff. But I've never read something like that made into a FF circuit, so sure there is a good reason then. Actually, i would like to build a FF with the fuzz maxed (so no pot for fuzz, always at max) and just a internal trimpot for the volume, but I don't know if that can be done. I can read schem's and solder, I've done it before at high school, so I'd like to "design" a vero, i mean, taking a FF or Axis Fuzz schem and mod it to what i said, but I don't know if that can be done yet.

Anyway, thanks for the answer, I'm gonna check those pages right now

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:13

I've seem those ones at Banzai: http://www.banzaimusic.com/Fuzz-Face-Mo ... r-Set.html

One has a plastic cap... does it matter? You think that's a nice one or should I check the more "classic" ones? I'm reeeeeally newbie with all that transistors stuff.

Post by **abfackeln** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:24

That set you've linked to looks like a silicon set, with one "older" transistor (metal can) and a newer plastic one.

Basic differences between germanium and silicon are that "typically" germanium sounds "warmer", and silicon can be more "harsh" - everything in quotes because descriptions of these really are subjective, and there a millions of descriptions out there, and either type can be tweaked via component values to sound similar to the other.
Silicon is also more resistant to temperature changes - as germaniums get warmer (i.e. summer months), they can start sounding pretty bad (but there are some remedies out there for this).

Have you read this article?
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/f ... fffram.htm

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 16 Dec 2009, 13:29

Yeah, I've read it, but it talks way more abot Ge than Si, and I'm more interested in Silicon, first because of the consistency and second because I prefer Si FF than Ge soundwise.

I think I'm gonna get that pack from Banzai, looks nice and it sais is low-noise, wich is a nice thing.

Thanks for the help

cpm · Post by **cpm** » 16 Dec 2009, 14:31

bienvenido Proco

I advise you build first a fuzz using Si- transistors. Usually whatever NPN (or pnp if needed) can sound nice and some like the 2N3904 can be found easily and real cheap.

Si transistors can be made to sound close to Ge. Only theres need for different circuit design because the imperfections that Ge trans have (low gain, frequency response, etc, all adds implicitly for its sound) must be taken into account when working with the more "perfect" si transistors.

Once you learn some basics you will be able to tweak the small fuzzes to suit you different kind of transistors, or tastes about sound.

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 17 Dec 2009, 09:17

Gracias

For what I see, transistors are a huuuge world. I've realized that I know nothing about them, so i hope that after my FF building the fun keeps on coming, tweaking, trying different trannies and modding circuits. I'm really inerested on making fuzzes and some crazy FX... not really into TS9, RAT, Phase90 etc... I mean, those are nice, but just not my cup of tea.

Right now I'm trying on a protoboard my firt Electra Distortion build, and sounds great, maybe i'm gonna start tweaking that one first, as it has been a really easy building (on proto at least).

One question i have is, where can i buy "custom" PCBs? I want to buy everything on Veroboards, but sometimes PCBs just looks better IMO, but as it's not gonna be something that i plan to do for myself a lot of times, i don't think it's worth it to buy all the stuff needed, so, is there any company that makes PCBs for you? (of corse sending the design and all details they need).

... And that was the last question of the thread

Dr Tony Balls · Post by **Dr Tony Balls** » 17 Dec 2009, 14:22

veering a little off topic, but for a first build, fuzz faces can be *kinda* finnicky. at least in my experience. there's a lot of sweet spots to find, via transistors or bias voltage or whatever. If you want to try something DEAD SIMPLE, try the hemmo bazz fuzz. Its like 5 parts, sounds great, and you can get it together in no time at all. Its a good little build for experience and to have something under your belt before you mess with more complicated stuff. I make them all the time and throw em into all kinds of circuits.

http://www.home-wrecker.com/bazz.html

Proco · Post by **Proco** » 18 Dec 2009, 13:19

Yeah, the Bazz Fuss is in my list aswell, really simple and rought sounding as far as I know from the (very litle) demos I've found on the Internet. Defintetly on my "next-build" list.

The Electra Distortion is a funny one, indeed, I'm experimenting with some resistors, cheap components and is very interesting how a simple change can make a dramatic difference in the final sound. I guess it's because of the little componets used, so each one of them really DO something.

Thanks for all the input.

ANyway, let's see if I buy a new camera soon so I can take some pictures of my new Wheezer mods Russian Big Muff Pi... sounds HUGE, more a distortion than a Fuzz now, but man, what a great sound now (and before, IMO). But has been heavily modified and I'm curious about it.

Joshik · Post by **Joshik** » 22 Dec 2009, 04:22

I heartily recommend the Bazz Fuss as a first DIY project! I just put up a video on YouTube that demos this great, simple pedal. Dr. Balls is right - the original Christian/Hemmo circuit consists of five parts: 2 capacitors, 1 transistor, 1 diode, and 1 resistor. Instead of using the 2N3904 as the transistor, get an MPSA13 darlington transistor - it will probably set you back a whole 15 cents or so. If you go to http://www.fuzzboxworld.com and order the Beginner's Kit ($35), that's the Bazz Fuss pedal, complete with the MPSA13! If you ask, the guy will even drill the holes in the box for you - which is great if this is your first pedal!

Here's the video demo:

bigmufffuzzwizz · Post by **bigmufffuzzwizz** » 04 Mar 2011, 22:09

That is a good question about the trannies. I've been looking at a vero silicon fuzz face layout done by dragonfly. Looks really simple, i'm totally considering buying a few types of trannies and experimenting as i haven't done that too much yet! I'll wait until later to waste my dollar on germ transistors!

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 16 Mar 2011, 14:36

bigmufffuzzwizz wrote:That is a good question about the trannies. I've been looking at a vero silicon fuzz face layout done by dragonfly. Looks really simple, i'm totally considering buying a few types of trannies and experimenting as i haven't done that too much yet! I'll wait until later to waste my dollar on germ transistors!

I rebuilt one of my Fuzz Faces onto perfboard, pretty much following the same layout as the Fuzz Face PCB, and also routing all the pieces of tinned copper wire as per how the PCB tracks are routed, I used a couple of BC548C Silicon NPN Transistors, average gain was about 574 Hfe, also I soldered a couple of 100pF disc ceramic capacitors across the C-B junction of each transistor, I used stock-standard fixed resistor values except for the 330 Ohm, I used a 470 Ohm resistor instead, didn't make much difference to the operation of the pedal though....

I used BC548c transistors because they are equivalent to the BC108c Transistor, except that they are in a black plastic case.....

Ronniucci71 · Post by **Ronniucci71** » 17 Mar 2011, 04:16

Great thread. Thanks so much for all the info given so far.

I recently started to build my own effects and now, I am working on a fuzz clone. I am always on the look-out for matched germanium transistors, and luckily, there's a component manufacturer here, in Milwaukee (Allen-Bradley) and a few surplus component places that seem to have everything I need at prices that can't be beat--the unmatched Ge transistors are sold in bulk and I have read that I may lose up to 1/3 of a lot due to test results indicating leakage. Anyway, I went ahead and bought a bulk pack of some Ge transistors because the "in house" techie told me that they would work well in a fuzz unit. They're 2SB75's. Now, I have read droves of tech sheets that discuss AC128's, AC188's, BC108's, etc., but I have not seen anything about this particular transistor. Also, I wish a general data sheet that has the transistor number and a descriptor outlining its characteristics in a fuzz unit, or other effect, or if it is worth using at all, existed for those of us creating our own sounds. For example:

AC128 Ge - used in fuzz face clones, etc., [tonal characteristics], [specs], [preferred manufacturer, country of acquisition purposes], [benefits/drawbacks] --whatever else would be considered good info for FX techies-- etc.

Now, because I am new to this forum and to the world of "DIY" effects & amps, I may have overlooked a thread that has such a guide or have not found a reliable internet source for such information. Either way, if someone could help me out by pointing me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it. I also need to know if those 2SB75's are really any good for Fuzz, etc., so if anyone can answer that one, please let me know that too--I have a bunch, so it will mean I use them, or put them up on eBay for someone that can.

Thanks so much for your time and help. This is a great place for someone like me to learn all about my latest endeavor.

Ron

Duckman · Post by **Duckman** » 17 Mar 2011, 06:22

Hi, guys!

Just one comment:
Don't forget to use the "SEARCH" function. This forum opened since 2007 and is full of invaluable info.
I think Fuzz Faces and Ge trannies has a lot of space devoted and people who work hard before deserves some attention

Nothing wrong about asking, but most of times, the info is already there, so search it and enjoy it... for free!

bigmufffuzzwizz · Post by **bigmufffuzzwizz** » 23 Mar 2011, 18:49

DrNomis wrote:
bigmufffuzzwizz wrote:That is a good question about the trannies. I've been looking at a vero silicon fuzz face layout done by dragonfly. Looks really simple, i'm totally considering buying a few types of trannies and experimenting as i haven't done that too much yet! I'll wait until later to waste my dollar on germ transistors!

I rebuilt one of my Fuzz Faces onto perfboard, pretty much following the same layout as the Fuzz Face PCB, and also routing all the pieces of tinned copper wire as per how the PCB tracks are routed, I used a couple of BC548C Silicon NPN Transistors, average gain was about 574 Hfe, also I soldered a couple of 100pF disc ceramic capacitors across the C-B junction of each transistor, I used stock-standard fixed resistor values except for the 330 Ohm, I used a 470 Ohm resistor instead, didn't make much difference to the operation of the pedal though....

I used BC548c transistors because they are equivalent to the BC108c Transistor, except that they are in a black plastic case.....

Sounds crazy man. Didn't know that about the BC548c trannies. Must be cheaper than Bc108's then i'm guessing. I'll look into those.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 23 Mar 2011, 19:07

bigmufffuzzwizz wrote:
DrNomis wrote:
bigmufffuzzwizz wrote:That is a good question about the trannies. I've been looking at a vero silicon fuzz face layout done by dragonfly. Looks really simple, i'm totally considering buying a few types of trannies and experimenting as i haven't done that too much yet! I'll wait until later to waste my dollar on germ transistors!

I rebuilt one of my Fuzz Faces onto perfboard, pretty much following the same layout as the Fuzz Face PCB, and also routing all the pieces of tinned copper wire as per how the PCB tracks are routed, I used a couple of BC548C Silicon NPN Transistors, average gain was about 574 Hfe, also I soldered a couple of 100pF disc ceramic capacitors across the C-B junction of each transistor, I used stock-standard fixed resistor values except for the 330 Ohm, I used a 470 Ohm resistor instead, didn't make much difference to the operation of the pedal though....

I used BC548c transistors because they are equivalent to the BC108c Transistor, except that they are in a black plastic case.....
Sounds crazy man. Didn't know that about the BC548c trannies. Must be cheaper than Bc108's then i'm guessing. I'll look into those.

The BC548C transistors I used were in a mixed pack of small signal Silicon Transistors which I bought from Jaycar Electronics for about $10.00 or so, there were a total of 50 PNP and NPN transistors, the types included were BC547C, BC547B, BC557, BC548C, BC548B, BC558, BC549C, and BC559, all with an EBC pinout.....

If you can find a store that sells them in mixed bags of either 50 or 100 transistors, buy at least 1 pack....

I can confirm that BC548C NPN transistors with a gain of 574 to 670, will sound good in a Silicon Fuzz Face, in any case, they're a good alternative to the BC108C if you're having trouble sourcing them, with these resistor values, 330 Ohm/470 Ohm, 8k2, 33k, and 100k, with a 1k Fuzz pot and 500k Vol pol, you should see about 5.4V on the collector of Q2, 1.2V, on the collector of Q1, and about .5V on the Emitter of Q2, the sound should be very smooth sounding when the Fuzz control is maxxed.....

If you want to make it a bit smoother, solder a 100pF disc ceramic capacitor across the Collector-Base junction of both Q1 and Q2.....

bigmufffuzzwizz · Post by **bigmufffuzzwizz** » 26 Mar 2011, 21:27

Thanks for the awesome info!!! The layout i'm planning on using is dragonfly's silicon FF. He doesn't have a fuzz pot on his layout. Would you know where i would connect this? And i'm guessing you mean 1K linear pot correct? It's great to know i have so many choices in terms of transistors. And i do have a decently cheap source for BC107/BC108C/Bc109C. I'm also guessing the older transistors labeled Bc108/Bc109 where different from the ones available now. Maybe i'm wrong though.

bigmufffuzzwizz · Post by **bigmufffuzzwizz** » 09 May 2011, 05:13

Just finished my first fuzz face build(dragonfly's silicon version). This thing is quite a monster. It sounds incredible especially when my guitar volume knob is maxed! I'm having some strange problems with noise though. I get a scratchy/hissy noise that I can really seem to get to go away unless I start touching things on the circuit board. It returns again as soon as I touch the strings. It also went away on my neck pickup with the tone knob rolled off. Kinda weird I'm guessing this is a grounding issue, as I don't have it boxed up yet just on a test rig.
Did you experience this Dr. Nomis?

I'm gonna try w/ my Les Paul and see if it happens still. Of course I'll double check placement of everything.

DrNomis · Post by **DrNomis** » 09 May 2011, 22:56

bigmufffuzzwizz wrote:Just finished my first fuzz face build(dragonfly's silicon version). This thing is quite a monster. It sounds incredible especially when my guitar volume knob is maxed! I'm having some strange problems with noise though. I get a scratchy/hissy noise that I can really seem to get to go away unless I start touching things on the circuit board. It returns again as soon as I touch the strings. It also went away on my neck pickup with the tone knob rolled off. Kinda weird I'm guessing this is a grounding issue, as I don't have it boxed up yet just on a test rig.
Did you experience this Dr. Nomis?

I'm gonna try w/ my Les Paul and see if it happens still. Of course I'll double check placement of everything.

Yes, I experienced something similar to what you experienced, what's actually happening is that the Fuzz Face circuit tends to oscillate at very high frequencies when you use Silicon Transistors, funnily enough, this doesn't seem to happen when you use Germanium transistors, fortunately there's a way to fix the problem, all you need to do is get two 100pF disc ceramic capacitors and solder these so that they are in parallel with each transistor's Collector-Base junction, that is, solder one of the capacitor's terminals to the Transistor's Collector, and the other terminal to the Base, this acts to reduce each transistor's gain at high frequencies, I did this mod to my Fuzz Face that I built using a couple of BC548C transistors which had average gains of about 640, and the mod got rid of the oscillation at maximum fuzz settings, it also made the pedal sound smoother to my ears...

You can also try soldering a third 100pF capacitor from the first transistor's Base to circuit ground too...

Hope that helps....