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I've been sourcing up some parts. I'm going to be starting a little Rangemaster project. I've done a couple derivatives before already, but I'm going to try and go all-out and build what I'd consider to be the "Ultimate" $200-$300 Rangemaster.

While I am certainly one of those folks who complains bitterly about the outrageous prices on simple circuits like this, I do believe that a high price can be justified if the appropriate materials and techniques are used. And that's always been my complaint; booteekers who charge high prices, but then use the same cheap parts and techniques as the mass-produced pedals.

So, the project will be my attempt to answer the question, "What would be considered a true high-end boutique Rangemaster?"

I've got a handful of special parts already; a hand-selected OC44, a variety of different vintage Sprague paper-in-oil bumblebee caps, a variety of vintage carbon comp resistors, etc....
I still need a few little things; enclosure, a good stompswitch (not a blue one), a high grade volume pot (I'm thinking about trying a wirewound...), high grade terminal strips, etc...

I'm also considering adding an input cap selector, so I'll definitely need a high quality rotary for that, or possibly a 3-way toggle...

All-in-all, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up costing well over $100 in parts, but this is good because the idea is to make the silly thing as expensive as possible. Heck, if I didn't already have a bunch of PIO caps in my stock, I probably couldn't afford to build it!

soulsonic wrote:I've been sourcing up some parts. I'm going to be starting a little Rangemaster project. I've done a couple derivatives before already, but I'm going to try and go all-out and build what I'd consider to be the "Ultimate" $200-$300 Rangemaster.

While I am certainly one of those folks who complains bitterly about the outrageous prices on simple circuits like this, I do believe that a high price can be justified if the appropriate materials and techniques are used. And that's always been my complaint; booteekers who charge high prices, but then use the same cheap parts and techniques as the mass-produced pedals.

So, the project will be my attempt to answer the question, "What would be considered a true high-end boutique Rangemaster?"

I've got a handful of special parts already; a hand-selected OC44, a variety of different vintage Sprague paper-in-oil bumblebee caps, a variety of vintage carbon comp resistors, etc....
I still need a few little things; enclosure, a good stompswitch (not a blue one), a high grade volume pot (I'm thinking about trying a wirewound...), high grade terminal strips, etc...

I'm also considering adding an input cap selector, so I'll definitely need a high quality rotary for that, or possibly a 3-way toggle...

All-in-all, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up costing well over $100 in parts, but this is good because the idea is to make the silly thing as expensive as possible. Heck, if I didn't already have a bunch of PIO caps in my stock, I probably couldn't afford to build it!

Martin,
As a guy who has all that stuff (paper in oils, CC resistors, etc), let me mention one thing : I would STRONGLY advise using MF resistors instead of CC's in this particular circuit.
As far as the volume pot, allen bradleys and clarostats are very nice, and bourns makes some good ones too. You could go "higher end", btut you really wouldn't reap any real benefit.
Also, I would recommend using a 20K pot instead of the 10K...its a "personal taste" thing, but if you try it, it is likely that you'll find it to be superior.
As for the 3PDT, its still tough to beat the Fulltones for durability and reliability.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents ...
AC

I would definitely avoid CC's for any of the "big" resistors. I used carbon films mostly and have no complaints. It will hiss a little, but I agree, with CC's it will get pretty unbearable.

An experiment I'd like to see (hear) would be one with expensive choice parts compared to one with everyday but reasonable (i.e. no CC's) parts, tuned the same way and hear how they compare soundwise.

Thanks for the ideas guys.
Other than the various CC resistors, I also have a decent selection of RN60 metal films, so I have some choices there too...
But I must also note that I have a selection of 1 and 2 watt carbon comps, so it might be interesting to see if the noise might a bit more bearable with those extra large ones.
I've got a couple nice Allen-Bradley industrial grade pots, but they're only about 5K, so I guess we can save those for the SHO version of the experiment.
Comparing two circuits would be interesting. I'll see if I can rig up some sort of breadboard comparison device. It would be nice to hear what differences are most noticeable.

For footswitch, I'd really prefer something Japan-made or US-made. I'm actually strongly considering a magnetic latching relay setup so I don't have to fool with the sonic degradation of heavy industrial switch contacts. That would also vastly increase my choices for available switches since it would only need to be something simple and not some 3PDT monstrosity. I could use a really nice high-grade signal relay.

I was planning on doing a "high-ish quality" Rangemaster clone as well. I'm doing mind on a turret board. I was thinking about using SoZo Mustard caps. For the resistors, I'm not sure... there's always the Riken Ohms from Japan which are no longer made, so they have built in mojo points already. Maybe Black Gate for the electrolytics, but I have no idea where to find them. I think maybe they're no longer made as well, for even more unobtanium mojo.

I get a little tired of the hifi mojo approach to effects.

Let's define some terms. Let's call the fundamental unit of excrement a "doot".

There are commercial preparations which are intended to give a high, glossy shine to doots. In my old job, such preparations were called "doot-polish".

Using parts which other people have told you are super quality just because they are, with no technical backup as to why this should be so was one of the things which we would have called "doot-polish" by analogy to the commercial preparations.

I suppose that parts which are no longer made, for whatever reason, become mystical doot-polish just because they're rare.

Edsels are no longer made, either.

I'm assuming my slight sarcasm towards unobtanium mojo was lost in the keystrokes. My take on the whole thing: Are audiophile mojo parts going to provide the user a sonic orgasm? Probably not. And aside from spending a few extra bucks to learn the hard way, what harm could be done? Heck, if I take a brown bag lunch to work a couple of times instead of going out to eat, the extra cost of having cute little blue resistors with gold leads has been compinsated.

R.G. wrote:I get a little tired of the hifi mojo approach to effects.

Let's define some terms. Let's call the fundamental unit of excrement a "doot".

There are commercial preparations which are intended to give a high, glossy shine to doots. In my old job, such preparations were called "doot-polish".

Using parts which other people have told you are super quality just because they are, with no technical backup as to why this should be so was one of the things which we would have called "doot-polish" by analogy to the commercial preparations.

I suppose that parts which are no longer made, for whatever reason, become mystical doot-polish just because they're rare.

Edsels are no longer made, either.

Burglar wrote:I'm assuming my slight sarcasm towards unobtanium mojo was lost in the keystrokes.

It was indeed.

Burglar wrote:My take on the whole thing: Are audiophile mojo parts going to provide the user a sonic orgasm? Probably not. And aside from spending a few extra bucks to learn the hard way, what harm could be done? Heck, if I take a brown bag lunch to work a couple of times instead of going out to eat, the extra cost of having cute little blue resistors with gold leads has been compinsated.

That's very true. I make a strong distinction between three classes of things:
(a) things done for functional reasons
(b) things done for artistic reasons
and
(c) things done because you don't understand

There is a time for each of these. When you don't understand what happens, you must rely on whatever advice and/or intuition you can get. You almost always pay more for what you get because you buy things you don't need. You don't yet know you don't need them. The great mass of consumers are in this region almost all the time because the do not understand the technical background of most of the things they buy. So someone can easily take advantage of their ignorance and tell them that "the sound stage is enhanced and becomes three dimensional, with a veil of sonic haze removed; the notes become distinct and vivid, as though the performer was in the room with you" or other such junk.

Once you know what is wheat and what is rat droppings, you can decide to use, for instance, gold plating. Gold plating is moderately expensive, so using it implies spending more money. It can be purely functional, as in low-level switch plating, incredibly fine wire, or heat reflective coatings. It can also be purely artistic, done just because you like the way it looks.

My stance is that no one should ever buy gold plating or other expensive whatever just because they have been told that gold plating causes some snake-oil like effect.

So yes, if you know full well that the name printed on the parts doesn't necessarily make a sonic difference, and you want to make a Rangemaster that's pretty as well as functional and are willing to pay extra to make it prettier, go ahead. I know full well that there are better sounding amplifiers than the old Thomas Vox line, but I own one of just about ever model in the line because I like the way they look.

I don't want the hifi tweako predators creeping into music any more than they already have. I know it's a losing battle, but I try.

I don't want the hifi tweako predators creeping into music any more than they already have. I know it's a losing battle, but I try.

Me too....

analogguru

Me three.

My hope was that this comparison might finally put some of this crap to rest, here anyway.

Probably wouldn't, though.

I think it is impossible to do a comparison of any kind that will put to rest the idea that some difficult-to-obtain and expensive part(s) will make a pedal magically better. It's an irrational and unprovable belief similar to religion.

At the bottom of it, the tweakos WANT to believe that such a thing must exist, and in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they will do things like create a conspiracy theory for how you're hoodwinking them, or come up with arguments that show that the testing - or YOU - are at fault, not their preconceived notions.

This is a deep seated part of human nature. I think that it can only be prevented from starting, not corrected once a person is taken over by it.

This kind of need is what makes religious wars so bad - you cannot defeat an enemy that believes that they are being religiously rewarded for just hanging on to the death. You have to actually kill them. By their nature, deeply held non-provable beliefs cannot be argued away.

Two religions at war only achieve peace when most of one side is dead and no longer has the means to fight on. Evenly matched religious wars are a disaster, as there is no limit to the destruction until there is no way to wage war left.

I tend to go with measurements and take x component over y because it's more "on spec". I pulled a set of old (i think mullard because of the date codes type) cermanic caps from early sixties from an old reel tape recorder (speakers were date coded 1966) and they 8/10 had tolerance of about 2%.

The 47n caps measured 45.8 or better. That's better than my new polyester film or mylar capacitors. Are they better?

How about secondary characteristics: resistance in a capacitor, capacitance in a resistor?

I'm reading your tube amp faq, RG, and in some way it's recommended reading for stompboxers too, especially with regard to this topic.

Boy howdy. I didn't know that dropping an offhand half sarcastic comment about resistors would inspire such commentary on human nature and religious fanaticism. I guess I don't take building stompboxes that seriously. It's a hobby for me. It's something I do for fun with the side benefit of ending up having something I can use and enjoy. Not to mention I may learn a thing or two along the way. That's it. I don't feel that I have anything to prove.

Would I go out of my way to seek out what is marketed as the best of the best and pay whatever I have to pay to get it? No. But if I had the opportunity to give something a shot without jumping through flaming hoops and selling my car to fund it, why not?

Do I even need to build another Rangemaster? No. I just finished one that I built from "crap I had laying around". It's just fine. I like it. But I want to build another on turret board for kicks. I think it would be fun. Big deal. I probably won't go all high end on the parts unless I happen across an affordable and convenient source for them. If anyone wants to consider me a brainwashed tweako for doing so, that's fine. I know how my own mind works, and I'm not seeking anyone's blessing on how I explore my own hobby.

Go back and read my original post on high end unobtanium mojo parts, and notice I didn't say they're any better. The only reason I brought it up is that they fit the bill for what Soulsonic seems to have in mind.

R.G, I respect and admire your research and contributions to the hobby and/or passion that all here have some level of interest in. But I think labeling anyone as a tweako predator in the context of this discussion is more than a little bit over the top. I don't see anyone here preying on anyone else. I know I'm not. I haven't taken advantage of anyone's ignorance for my own personal gain.

But maybe I've made a bold assumption in that your comments seemed to be a reaction to what I posted. If that wasn't directed at my posts, disregard this one. I'm basically in agreement with you on the use of hi-fi gooberism and buzzwords to take advantage of those who don't know any better. But I don't think it applies here, as many of the people who participate in this forum already know better. And I don't mean any harm to anyone by building a hi-fi tweako Rangemaster. I guess my reason for considering them would be for what some consider "artistic". But I've never thought of myself as an artist.

All that wasn't directed at you; or anyone in particular. I just get started thinking about something and my mind wanders down that lane for a while.

Kind of a free-association stream of consciousness thing. No venom in there, just musing.

Go build your stuff, however you want. No biggie.

As my friends use to tell me - about me! - a monstrous mind is a toy forever.

kittens and sixpacks

for effects rg what do you like in caps and resistors? I can't afford mojo I just want what a guy like you would use in a pedal.

I hear ya. There are certain things that can set me off as well. But I've mellowed out a bit since I stopped drinking coffee all day and night and quit the 60 hour per week job.

High five!
Over and out.

R.G. wrote:All that wasn't directed at you; or anyone in particular. I just get started thinking about something and my mind wanders down that lane for a while.

Kind of a free-association stream of consciousness thing. No venom in there, just musing.

Go build your stuff, however you want. No biggie.

As my friends use to tell me - about me! - a monstrous mind is a toy forever.

kittens and sixpacks

Would I go out of my way to seek out what is marketed as the best of the best and pay whatever I have to pay to get it? No. But if I had the opportunity to give something a shot without jumping through flaming hoops and selling my car to fund it, why not?

I think most of the mojo stuff in this thread sprung from Soulsonic's post about building a "top of the line" Rangemaster. I don't think anything was directed at you. No offense, but I didn't even see your post at first...

To me, the trick is to pay attention to what you're doing, measure values if needed, listen to how bias and other electrical variations affect the sound, and then build it to satisfy what your ears tell you. I'm real happy with the Rangemaster I built a month or so ago. No mojo or fancy parts, just stuff I had lying around and a real nice transistor I got from Aron a long time ago.

I think using fancy parts as an experiment or out of curiosity or whatever is fine. I agree with RG that there are too many variables and different perceptions/expectations to make any kind of across-the-board comparison valid. However, I think individually we could all satisfy ourselves one way or another building an "expensive" version of an effect- if we wanted to go to the time or trouble. I don't, but I'm interested to see what Soulsonic (and you) come up with. I think it's an interesting idea. For myself, I learned a while ago that no matter what kinds of parts I'm using- it's the tuning/tweaking phase that takes an "okay" circuit to something that is "really nice". So I don't worry this kind of stuff myself- but I'm always interested in what other people find.

it's the tuning/tweaking phase that takes an "okay" circuit to something that is "really nice".

I absolutely agree - and I have seen and heard some nice effects that used the cheapest of components.
bajaman

modman wrote:How about secondary characteristics: resistance in a capacitor, capacitance in a resistor?

Not relevant at low voltages?
Will a circuit built with carbon film resistors in series to attain metal film tolerance levels sound the same? In other words: is the extra hiss an effect of the material in the resistor, or stemming from a less accurate values?

With regards to pots....

I absolutely believe that pots make a difference for a couple reasons....

1) durability...AB, Clarostats, Bournes, etc all are better built and will last better than the "boutique fx industry standard" Alpha's. I can literally break the Alphas into pieces with my bare hands.

2) better tolerance....higher end pots tend to be much closer to the "actual value" advertised, thus making for more consistency.


I haven't checked with regards to "tone" however...the easiest way would be to bust out the DMM, get a Alpha that matches up to a AB or Claro in value, and give a listen. See if it makes any difference.