The 'Sound' of Capacitors..

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 16 Feb 2010, 08:10

mictester wrote:They DO - as long as the capacitor values are the same.

I think he's already said he tested values. Of course we could all just carry on saying the same thing over and over again and ignoring what other people involved in the conversation have said if you like.

KMG · Post by **KMG** » 16 Feb 2010, 08:45

Only vaccum capacitors has one value - capacitance. Other types has dielectric between electrodes.
This material is not ideal and has some properties (different for different types of material) - hysteresis of repolarization, dependence of dielectric constant on the electric field strength (sometimes nonlinear). But all of this is theory.
Musicians can`t told you what type of capacitors they prefer but thay told the sound they prefer. They vote with purse for the more qualitative capacitors.

Greg · Post by **Greg** » 16 Feb 2010, 09:08

IvIark wrote:
Greg_G wrote:You said you couldn't do the test because of personal preferences.
I didn't say that at all, I'm more than happy to do a test. In fact I'm ordering some 100nF electrolytics for that very reason. You quoted me from a post I wrote to mictester which was about my personal preference and general feelings on the matter. They aren't going to change because they're based on my own experiences.

I wasn't looking for an arguement IvIark..

you said:
"I personally couldn't do a double blind test with cheapo caps and ultra high end and pick out the high end ones, but that's not because I don't believe there can be any audible differences, I just don't think the ultra high end cap will necessarily always sound the best to me."

My point is that in a double blind test, you're not trying to identify which one sounds best to you.. just whether they sound different.
Make sense ?

you also said:
"I've heard subtle differences but not been able to say that I specifically prefer one over another"

OK.. if you can hear a difference (whether you prefer it or not - 'cause that's irrelevant for the purpose of the test).. and back up what you hear in a blind test, then you've proven caps can sound different.

oldgravity · Post by **oldgravity** » 16 Feb 2010, 09:23

IvIark wrote:
mictester wrote:They DO - as long as the capacitor values are the same.
I think he's already said he tested values. Of course we could all just carry on saying the same thing over and over again and ignoring what other people involved in the conversation have said if you like.

Bumblebee - the person to whom mictester was replying - did not say he measured the caps. I don't think we need to get snarky here, but if we do, maybe it's you who's ignoring what's been said (and what hasn't).

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 16 Feb 2010, 09:41

Greg_G wrote:
I wasn't looking for an arguement IvIark..

I'm not looking for an argument either, you said that for the purpose of this test my personal preference wouldn't matter, I said that it matters to me in the context of my post to mictester which you quoted, and which wasn't specifically about the test. I'm pretty sure I've gathered what would make a test confirmed or busted (in my best Adam Hyneman voice).

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 16 Feb 2010, 09:47

oldgravity wrote:Bumblebee - the person to whom mictester was replying - did not say he measured the caps. I don't think we need to get snarky here, but if we do, maybe it's you who's ignoring what's been said (and what hasn't).

You mean I'm the one being "snarky" because I'm still disagreeing with a couple of people who are telling me that no matter what, I'm wrong and any differences are only down to tolerances - even to the posters in the thread who HAVE said they've measured values. With face palms and bold red text all the way, and I'm snarky? Well I apologise that you haven't managed me to convert me to your way of thinking by simply telling me I'm wrong.

oldgravity · Post by **oldgravity** » 16 Feb 2010, 10:11

IvIark wrote:
oldgravity wrote:Bumblebee - the person to whom mictester was replying - did not say he measured the caps. I don't think we need to get snarky here, but if we do, maybe it's you who's ignoring what's been said (and what hasn't).
You mean I'm the one being "snarky" because I'm still disagreeing with a couple of people who are telling me that no matter what, I'm wrong and any differences are only down to tolerances - even to the posters in the thread who HAVE said they've measured values. With face palms and bold red text all the way, and I'm snarky? Well I apologise that you haven't managed me to convert me to your way of thinking by simply telling me I'm wrong.

I think if you'll reread my contributions to this thread you'll note that I haven't said anyone was wrong. I think everyone should calm down a little, it's really not such a big deal either way.

Some say they've measured the caps, and I don't doubt them. But the majority of the people who I've heard make this claim, including in this thread, have not actually matched caps with a meter. That's important, and shouldn't be discounted, even though for some reason you're threatened by the suggestion that maybe 2 caps having different capacitance could explain why they sound different.

I haven't said here that I don't think anyone could hear a difference in caps of the same value. I really have no idea if they could. I know I can't. I would never bother to tell someone that their own experiences didn't happen; I just think it's worth asking all those who've heard a difference whether they actually were using caps of the same value.

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 16 Feb 2010, 10:35

oldgravity wrote:I think if you'll reread my contributions to this thread you'll note that I haven't said anyone was wrong. I think everyone should calm down a little, it's really not such a big deal either way.

oldgravity wrote:Definitely tolerance.

Well in the post above you seemed pretty sure that any difference was definitely down to tolerance?

oldgravity wrote:even though for some reason you're threatened by the suggestion that maybe 2 caps having different capacitance could explain why they sound different.

Now who's misquoting? I never suggested that 2 caps having different capacitance couldn't explain it at all - much less been threatened by the suggestion. My whole argument is that I disagree that it is "Definitely tolerance" whilst ignoring every other possibility, or should I say I disagree that it is "Definitely only tolerance". The people who have a more open mind on the subject have asked questions regarding physical properties of the cap material, ESR, dielectric type etc, and so far no one has come up with a reason why those differences should be considered irrelevant, and rather come up with reasons such as "Trust me". I just don't find that quite convincing enough.

KMG · Post by **KMG** » 16 Feb 2010, 10:51

Capacitors with equal capaciance does not equal in other parameters defined by their dielectric material and construction.
So the real circuits with different types of capacitors having exactly equal capaciance will has differnt frequency and phase response.
So it is not worthwhile to forget about nonlinearity and hysteresis of the ceramic and electrolytic capacitors.
Resulting difference will depend on the concrete circuit diagram - Zload after capacitor, amplitude of repolarization etc.

mictester · Post by **mictester** » 16 Feb 2010, 11:01

IvIark wrote:
oldgravity wrote:Bumblebee - the person to whom mictester was replying - did not say he measured the caps. I don't think we need to get snarky here, but if we do, maybe it's you who's ignoring what's been said (and what hasn't).
You mean I'm the one being "snarky" because I'm still disagreeing with a couple of people who are telling me that no matter what, I'm wrong and any differences are only down to tolerances - even to the posters in the thread who HAVE said they've measured values. With face palms and bold red text all the way, and I'm snarky? Well I apologise that you haven't managed me to convert me to your way of thinking by simply telling me I'm wrong.

...You can't help it if you're wrong....

mictester · Post by **mictester** » 16 Feb 2010, 11:05

IvIark wrote:
oldgravity wrote:I think if you'll reread my contributions to this thread you'll note that I haven't said anyone was wrong. I think everyone should calm down a little, it's really not such a big deal either way.

oldgravity wrote:Definitely tolerance.
Well in the post above you seemed pretty sure that any difference was definitely down to tolerance?

oldgravity wrote:even though for some reason you're threatened by the suggestion that maybe 2 caps having different capacitance could explain why they sound different.
Now who's misquoting? I never suggested that 2 caps having different capacitance couldn't explain it at all - much less been threatened by the suggestion. My whole argument is that I disagree that it is "Definitely tolerance" whilst ignoring every other possibility, or should I say I disagree that it is "Definitely only tolerance". The people who have a more open mind on the subject have asked questions regarding physical properties of the cap material, ESR, dielectric type etc, and so far no one has come up with a reason why those differences should be considered irrelevant, and rather come up with reasons such as "Trust me". I just don't find that quite convincing enough.

ESR is insignificant at the audio frequencies and voltages we're considering. It comes into play in power supplies however, as it can alter the effect of smoothing. Material, dielectric type and colour of plastic have NO effect whatsoever on the audio properties of a capacitor.

If you want to come to London, I can arrange some proper double-blind tests in an anechoic listening room. I'd have to charge for each failure to correctly distinguish component type, however....

IvIark · Post by **IvIark** » 16 Feb 2010, 11:06

mictester wrote:...You can't help it if you're wrong....

There you go oldgravity, that's generally been the alternative argument we've had so far ...

mictester · Post by **mictester** » 16 Feb 2010, 11:13

KMG wrote:Capacitors with equal capaciance does not equal in other parameters defined by their dielectric material and construction.
So the real circuits with different types of capacitors having exactly equal capaciance will has differnt frequency and phase response.
So it is not worthwhile to forget about nonlinearity and hysteresis of the ceramic and electrolytic capacitors.
Resulting difference will depend on the concrete circuit diagram - Zload after capacitor, amplitude of repolarization etc.

Complete nonsense. Phase and frequency responses are identical for a given value of capacitance regardless of the construction of the capacitor. The loading after the capacitor is also immaterial for the same reason. Repolarisation voltage could (theoretically) be significant, but isn't when we have 500 mV of audio passing through a 16 V rated electrolytic capacitor biased to (say) 6V. These are all just Audiophool claims that have no substance whatsoever in reality.

The formulae I've used for the last 35 years to design electronic products haven't changed recently (as far as I'm aware). If there are any new analyses that are available, I'll be happy to look at them, and I'll laugh long and hard - just like I laugh at all the Audiophools - because they'll just be more nonsense.

KMG · Post by **KMG** » 16 Feb 2010, 11:37

Real capacitor consists not only of C but also from R (dielectric losses) L (stray inductance).
Also capacitor loaded for example on diode limiter has large enough amount of bipolar repolarization.

MoonWatcher · Post by **MoonWatcher** » 16 Feb 2010, 13:25

KMG wrote:Real capacitor consists not only of C but also from R (dielectric losses) L (stray inductance).

Yes - L/C/R. Perhaps insignificant in a 9VDC powered gizmo where the desired effect is to alter the signal in some unorthodox method.

But the L/C/R thing is worth noting, as there can be a tendency to divorce the contribution of capacitors only on what we hear. Passive devices that are shaping primarily L and R differently will have a clearly audible effect.

I don't think that this requires a true double blind or even some sort of super scientific method type of approach. I suggest (because I know from experience that the average response will be one of counterargument) that someone build a box with the following characteristics:

- at least 4 signal caps that are part of an R/C network

- some sort of switching that allows all 4 caps to be hot switched (multi pole rotary, etc.)

- caps must be matched with a meter to within 5% of value, preferably 3%

- a minimum of 3 different types of dielectrics

- it might be helpful to pick caps that are part of networks that pass frequencies within what a guitar can produce, i.e. 100 Hz to 4000 Hz, and maybe even a more narrow spectrum (250 Hz to 2000 Hz). As the human ear becomes less sensitive to frequencies at the far ends of the reproducible spectrum, any noticeable difference will probably be more subtle.

...The hope is that if you limit it to 4 caps, you should be able to keep the switching challenge to a minimum. And if you can switch them in real time, you aren't affected by periods in between the audition. And if you keep them within the same pedal, any tolerance issues with other components become negligible.

Being able to switch in real time is important, IMO. You need an instant frame of reference, and you'll probably need to repeat it quite a few times (I will typically repeat it an average of 30 or more times). It may help to have someone either do the switching for you, or put a phrase looper in front of the whole shooting match so that you can concentrate on manipulating the switching, with the nice benefit being that you will have a consistent signal source that repeats.

It would probably also help if you didn't know which types of dielectric were active at any given time during the audition. This is when a 2nd person becomes helpful, since they can "conceal" the switch setting.

This could actually be done by semi crude mechanical methods, as long as the caps can be switched relatively quickly. It could even be a row of SPST's.

I think that subjective perceptions are valid in this instance, particularly if they can be kept in the realm of "I heard a difference," as opposed to, "cap A was more chewy with a really nice bloom, while cap C had edgy trebles and bland sounding midrange." IOW, less is more.

But it's hard to actually do something like this (not for me personally), as it's so much easier just to indicate why you cannot or will not do it. If it's possible to suspend emotion and personality temporarily, it might help more folks to get some potentially beneficial experiences on this subject, for our specific needs.

...Just sayin'.

bumblebee · Post by **bumblebee** » 16 Feb 2010, 20:30

oldgravity wrote:
Am I to say 8 1uF electros sounds identical to 8 1UF box caps in the SAME pedal when it doesnt?
Again it sounds to me like you're just going by the nominal value. Did you actually measure to make sure these 8 "1uf" caps were the same precise value as the other "1uf" caps? If not, it's pretty obvious why they sound different. Electrolytics commonly have a tolerance of +or- 20%, which means that your "1uf" box cap could be as much as 30% difference in capacitance from a 1uf electro. Enough that the corner frequency could be 2/3 of an octave different. Do that 8 times throughout a circuit, and it's not surprising that it sounds different.

There is an excellent reason to use box caps instead of electros, which is that they won't break down in 10 years and need to be replaced.

bumblebee wrote: Just like science cant explain how the universe came into being (the big bang is bullshit. everything from nothing....sure!)
Aha... these comments are helpful because they help me understand where you're coming from, in terms of epistemology, and your personal philosophy of "knowledge". It's kind of like I don't need to argue about ontogeny recapitulation with somebody who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old (not saying that you believe that). Obviously there are much deeper disconnects in our thinking than with regard to capacitors.

Its not the tolerances,its the cap, I know this. For example I've tried various caps in the two clipping stages of the big muff from 100nF to 2.2uF. The value's between 470nF and 2.2uF don't make much of a difference but when replaced with an electro from 470nF to 2.2uF it does make a difference. It cant be tolerances because I have already established that the big muff sounds fine with clipping caps from 470nF to 2.2uF with poly type. When an electro of between 470nF to 2.2uF is placed in both stages the sound changed for the worse and considering the exact pedal sounds fine with caps from 470nF to 2.2uF it must be the cap type,not the value as 470nF to 2.2uF is a pretty wide variation which sounds fine with poly caps but not electro's, this rules out the possibility that is the tolerances unless of course you would like to argue that the tolerances of a 1uF electro can measure from 1nF to 1000uF.....

But there's a flip side to this too, I have other big muffs (American) that have all electro's in them and they sound fine. Its ONLY in the old SBM's I have noticed such a difference between electro and box type which makes me think its got to do with the other components and their tolerances used in the SBM's used in conjunction with electro's as the parts values used between American BM's and SBM's are quite different.

As for what I believe about the age of the earth, that is 100% irrelevant as far as capacitors and electronics is concerned and there can be no parallel drawn whatsoever. But for the record I'm a skeptical agnostic. I don't swallow everything I'm told just because the guy telling it has a wall full of degree's, I research it for myself and use all evidence, or lack there of to make conclusions.

mictester wrote:
bumblebee wrote:
Am I to say 8 1uF electros sounds identical to 8 1UF box caps in the SAME pedal when it doesnt?
They DO - as long as the capacitor values are the same.

See above post.

--------------------------------------------

And no the caps were NOT measured and matched as there was no need to as I explained in the post above the wide variations in values I was using ruled out the possibility that it was tolerances messing with the sound rather than cap type.

Just because one cant see the forest for the tree's doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't necessarily mean it does either but if people say it does they deserve to be taken seriously rather than treated with arrogance and intolerance because their experience differs.

If you don't hear a difference in caps, then use whatever caps you like, its not hurting you if people do hear a difference and use what they deem to be more appropriate now is it?!?!?!?
If it is bothering you as much as seems evident then you have the traits of a dictator!

soulsonic · Post by **soulsonic** » 16 Feb 2010, 21:15

Man, this thread is off tha hook!

I love you guys.

culturejam · Post by **culturejam** » 16 Feb 2010, 21:21

soulsonic wrote:Man, this thread is off tha hook!

I love you guys.

I've never seen such a hissy fit over capacitors. But then again, I don't frequent audiophile forums either.

I'm going to start using wide-tolerance ceramic and very old electrolytics in my builds and see if I can hear the dialectric.

bumblebee · Post by **bumblebee** » 16 Feb 2010, 21:36

The last thread I posted in like this was about Dialectical Materialism not Dielectric Materials.

RnFR · Post by **RnFR** » 16 Feb 2010, 21:45

soulsonic wrote:Man, this thread is off tha hook!

I love you guys.

i know right? i love this place.