Fet version of the JCM800

Original effects with schematics, layouts and instructions, freely contributed by members or found in publications. Cannot be used for commercial purposes without the consent of the owners of the copyright.
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KMG
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Post by KMG »

Schematics (pdf)
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Stage by stage frequency response in comparison with the original tube version (stage2 with different gain positions)
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Ready to transfer PCB (pdf)
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Upper side assembly (pdf)
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Bottom side assembly (pdf)
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Assembled board
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Controls and input jacks (pdf)
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KiCad files
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... fet/kicad/
Samples
Line recording with external speaker simulator Behringer Ultra-G
Settings: Bass=7, Mid=6, Treble=6, Gain=7, Vol=8
Guitar directly

http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... t_od_1.mp3
Checking boost by Marshall Guv'nor Plus
Guitar trough Marshall Guv'nor Plus (Gain=1, Vol=9)

http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... t_od_2.mp3
Project page
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/jcm800fet_en.html
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Post by sinner »

Another great project from KMG :) Thanks :applause:

You are new member of the year!

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nooneknows
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Post by nooneknows »

impressive samples

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roseblood11
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Post by roseblood11 »

Wow, great project!

There are some really good circuits that emulate the sound of the JCM800. It would be interesting to compare them:
-ROG Thor
-Catalinbread DLS in "rawk"-mode
-the JCM800-Emu kit from uk-electronic.de...

Has someone built more than one of these pedals and could post soundsamples?

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KMG
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Post by KMG »

Here is comparison (not entirely correct due to different preamps) FET JCM800 and blue channel of tube Ecstasy preamp
Gain of FET JCM800 at the maximum, gain of ecstasy approximately 7-8.
Since ecstasy has bright correction on gain, then pre-emphasis on it is noticeable.
Recording chain: guitar->switchbox->preanps->switchbox->power amplifier->cabinet->sm57->microphone preamp->sound card
Clicks on record - switchbox switching.
First goes phrase on FET then on the tube, sometimes switching in the middle.
Compressed
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... s-tube.mp3 12.3M
Non compressed
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... s-tube.wav 67.8M
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KMG
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Post by KMG »

roseblood11 wrote:Wow, great project!

There are some really good circuits that emulate the sound of the JCM800. It would be interesting to compare them:
-ROG Thor
-Catalinbread DLS in "rawk"-mode
-the JCM800-Emu kit from uk-electronic.de...

Has someone built more than one of these pedals and could post soundsamples?
You forgot AMT Legend Amps pedal series designed by well known Victor Kampf (xbananov)
http://amtelectronics.com/products/amt_ ... mp_series/
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KMG
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mensur
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Post by mensur »

Hi KMG, great work, xbanov's preamps rocks, do you maybe know whats happening in there, schematic?

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KMG
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Post by KMG »

Base stage of AMT LA series
la_stage.jpg
la_stage.jpg (16.34 KiB) Viewed 15172 times
Source and drain capacitors differ from stage to stage (may not exists)
Interstage circuit is also different for different stages
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Post by Findeton »

KMG wrote:Base stage of AMT LA series
la_stage.jpg
Source and drain capacitors differ from stage to stage (may not exists)
Interstage circuit is also different for different stages
I get the idea but I differ on the implementation. The diode is used to emulate grid current happening on a triode when the grid voltage becomes positive. But the diode has an exponential current function whereas the grid current is a power function. That's why I think adding another fet between gate and drain to emulate the grid current would make more sense. What do you think?

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Post by RnFR »

Findeton wrote:
KMG wrote:Base stage of AMT LA series
la_stage.jpg
Source and drain capacitors differ from stage to stage (may not exists)
Interstage circuit is also different for different stages
I get the idea but I differ on the implementation. The diode is used to emulate grid current happening on a triode when the grid voltage becomes positive. But the diode has an exponential current function whereas the grid current is a power function. That's why I think adding another fet between gate and drain to emulate the grid current would make more sense. What do you think?
it's a great idea, can it be used for lower voltages as well? these preamps are freakin amazing, but i would really like know if it can be adapted to lower voltages, simply for ease of use and circuit simplification for lazy slobs like me. :block:
"You've converted me to Cubic thinking. Where do I sign up for the newsletter? I need to learn more about how I can break free from ONEism Death Math." - Soulsonic

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Post by Findeton »

RnFR wrote:
Findeton wrote:
KMG wrote:Base stage of AMT LA series
la_stage.jpg
Source and drain capacitors differ from stage to stage (may not exists)
Interstage circuit is also different for different stages
I get the idea but I differ on the implementation. The diode is used to emulate grid current happening on a triode when the grid voltage becomes positive. But the diode has an exponential current function whereas the grid current is a power function. That's why I think adding another fet between gate and drain to emulate the grid current would make more sense. What do you think?
it's a great idea, can it be used for lower voltages as well? these preamps are freakin amazing, but i would really like know if it can be adapted to lower voltages, simply for ease of use and circuit simplification for lazy slobs like me. :block:
I also discussed this on thispost. A low voltage implementation of this solid state triode could be this one:

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Which has similiar current graphs than a triode, just with lower voltages. This is for Plate current. The R7/R5 ratio controls the distance between the current lines for different values of Vgk, and R6 controls the plate current gain:

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But that graph is nothing new, the thing is that we achieved a grid current function like this one:

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RDISTORTION controls the gain of the grid current. A diode between the gate and source of a FET would also produce something similar to the "grid current" of a triode and that's what the circuit of KMG does, but that would be an exponential function, something like:

Ig=e^(Vgk/const1 - const2)

when the grid current is a power function:

Ig=k*[ (Vgk)^3 ]*[ (1-Vpk/500)^3 ]

I won't enter into details here, but in practice, because of using a load line and because of grid current, the term (1-Vpk/500)^3 is practically constant for a given stage (therefore we can control that constant with RDISTORTION, which value should be adjusted for each stage). The FET I added to the design (M24 in the schematic) has a transfer function similar to this one:

Ig=k*(Vgk-0.4)^2

Which is a power function, instead of exponential. So what do you people think of this other approach? I guess it's time to test the sound.

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Post by KMG »

it's a great idea, can it be used for lower voltages as well? these preamps are freakin amazing, but i would really like know if it can be adapted to lower voltages, simply for ease of use and circuit simplification for lazy slobs like me. :block:
If i right understood your question - this stage powered by 9V DC. All LA series preamps use 9V baterry for power.
But the diode has an exponential current function whereas the grid current is a power function. That's why I think adding another fet between gate and drain to emulate the grid current would make more sense. What do you think?
As you can see from following oscillograms shape of grid limiting differs to tubes from diferent manufacturers.
Test stage та же 22n,68к/1М at grid, 1,8к, 22u at cathode, 220к at plate. Supply 400V.
K1 - Plate
K2 - Input
K3 - Grid
K4 - Cathode
Electro-Harmonix Tung-Sol
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As you can see Tung-Sol gives rounder grid limiting than Electro-Harmonix.

In my opinion the "shape" of limitation has a smaller effect on sound (it defines the "tail" of harmonics - "sand") than dynamic change of triode working point due to changing of DC part on interstage decoupling capacitors and cathode blocking capacitors, because it defines mark to space ratio of limited signal (the relationship between even and odd harmonics)
Tube stage response on burst input signal (Tung-Sol)
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...
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And finally:
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Note mark to space ratio on first and last oscillogram (input signal remains unchanged)
All oscillograms there:
http://milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/projects ... compl/dyn/
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Post by KMG »

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Post by Findeton »

KMG wrote: In my opinion the "shape" of limitation has a smaller effect on sound (it defines the "tail" of harmonics - "sand") than dynamic change of triode working point due to changing of DC part on interstage decoupling capacitors and cathode blocking capacitors, because it defines mark to space ratio of limited signal (the relationship between even and odd harmonics)
Tube stage response on burst input signal (Tung-Sol)
Maybe you are right, that the "shape" of grid current is not that important in comparisong with other effects. If I understand well your approach, you are using this kind of circuit for each triode's stage:

Image

So, in this approach, you don't emulate a"triode" but each triode stage , am I right?

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Post by KMG »

You`re exactly right.
Corect triode curve emulation is important for creating "clean" channels of fet preamps, because fets sounds "honestly" with respect to tube due to their (fet) pentode curves nature. Triodes even without the limitation "color" the sound by harmonics.
The idea of my base stage was taken from researches of my friend Михаил Семенов (OldMike) from GtLab
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He describes the need of negative feedback to diode cathode
You can try to read full article (unfortunately in russian) using yahoo or google webpage translation.
http://gtlab.net/gtlab4/archives/216
The last article
http://gtlab.net/gtlab4/archives/415
Page belonged to emulation using mosfets
http://www.guitarjfet.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=34
There are a lot of schematics examples in these articles.
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Post by Tube2stomp »

KMG,

I checked the links you gave (thru yahoo babelfish)... man, to read tech documents translated from Russian into half jibrish English by a Hebrew speaker who is not too familiar with solid state is quite an IQ test to say the least :blackeye

Anyway, I understand what you guys try to accomplish and give or take "how" you try to achive this goal.
What I'm not so sure is what is going on in the 415 link.
(I'll use tube jargon so I won't get lost :mrgreen: )
You have there both cathode bias and fixed grid bias on each jfet.
If I estimate even 1mA current with a 200 ohm Rk, then with 0.4-0.5 positive grid bias... you bias the jfet totally in saturation :shock:
Wouldn't it be now a pure diode?
How can any clean signal pass there without being rectified?
And if in saturation a jfet behaves like tubes with "compressed" grid current limiting, why wouldn't it do the same with regular bias?
I saw the video of the traces and I see it works, but I don't understand how :?

Cheers mate

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Post by KMG »

Schematics from article
http://gtlab.net/gtlab4/archives/415
is very sensitive to FET parameters.
For the practical realization of device on the described stages with the standard battery supply of 9V are required FETs with the sufficiently low (- 0.2… 0,6V) cutoff voltage and the small initial drain current of (0.2… 0,6mA).
There are few accepible FETs, which correspond to these conditions - Russian microassembly КПС104A/B (2ПС104A/B), and selected by the parameters mentioned above - j201, 2SK118R and 2N4338.
The selection of drain resistor should be based in such a way that with the input sine wave of any amplitude (in the limits of actually of accessible with the supply of 9V) the form of the limited signal on the drain of FET would have the smooth soft rounding of lower half-wave, without the rigid fractures and the flat “shelves”, independent of the value of source resistor.
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Post by Tube2stomp »

Yea I saw that the fet needs to have some specific parameters, but why the *positive* bias of the gate/grid?
They put the fet at saturation from the begining which brings up three questions un answerd:

1. why when you positive bias a fet (saturation, above the source) it soft clips the signal just like tube current limiting?
2. how can you get a clean signal at all?? logicly there is no headroom... it's a rectifier now :scratch:
3. why a fet don't soft clip like that when biased normaly and then *driven* to saturation?

I can't find those answers in the article

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Post by KMG »

Let us note that the special feature of stage is the small mu-factor, determined by the sufficiently low load resistance in the drain, and respectively - the operating currents, close to the maximum for the FET operation mode.
And finally one additional “trick” of the described stage - certain positive bias on the gate, which lowers the threshold of the gate-source diode and which simultaneously establishes the operating point of stage at the level approximately of half of the supply voltage, since because of the draining resistor of small value the operating point, as a usually, with “zero” bias on the gate and supply of 9V is located in region 6…7V (but that above 8V in the case of the presence of source resistor) that, as has already been mentioned, it does not enhance achieving our goals.
With gate positive biasing gate-source diode opens and limits input signal before the FET falls into saturatuon (remember that drain resistor has low value).

PS I don`t tested schematics from this article by myself.
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