Bitmap BB - Big Muff testing ground! verified.

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flood
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Post by flood »

Ok, I'm happy i can finally give back to this wonderful place. this layout is verified and i'm probably going to put it in production for a limited run of germanium muffs. still working out the details for PCB making, btu i think it should work out well.

I call it the Bitmap BB, it is essentially a big muff on a somewhat larger board and a bit more space between components. my initial aim was to build a sort of testing ground for BMP based designs, and mix and match values to see how much of an effect it would have on the overall tone. it does double up as an enclosure friendly board; you can directly mount alpha pots onto the solder side if you're into that sort of thing like me.

there are two mods: diode lift makes for a big addition of a heavily boosted clean signal (although, my signal is so bass heavy on full guitar volume i was worried for my speaker) and the tone stack mod, which basicaly sets the EQ flat or boosts mids by connecting a 6n8 or 22 cap in parallel with the stock 3n3. use an on-off-on switch for this.

there is no filtering and no polarized components. you can add this separately. this was intentional since i wanted to test some germanium transistors in the same circuit.

also, there is a jumper denoted by the red line in the third PDF.

if you want to try different diodes, the spacing grid allows you to use cut-up IC sockets :D pop 'em in and out.

hope you enjoy this. if you do build this, tell me how it worked for you. thanks for reading!

THANKS: gauss markov's excellent DIY site - his schematic was the starting point. also, i'm going to go right ahead and thank marc/skreddy for being open about his work here and even sharing a schematic or two.
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bmp generic.pdf
note jumper
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bmp gen transfer.pdf
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bmp gen componenets.pdf
overview
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Post by mictester »

Flood! That's a great layout! :applause:
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Post by Duckman »

Nice work! Very neat! So... 10k for tone :hmmm: Typo or personal taste?

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Post by John Lyons »

Got a schematic?

thanks

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Post by flood »

ooooooh sorry. that's a typo. needs to be rectified. i think i modified it on my laptop, but this is my desktop and i didn't save a copy here. the schematic is almost the same as the gauss-markov schem, only with my mods added and the tone stack inverted so that the sweep is back to normal (i had a problem with inverted rat-like sweep using the GM version).

john, the schematic with the correct tone pot value now is attached here.

still waiting for quotes on those PCBs. would anybody be interested?
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Post by John Lyons »

Great, thanks!
John

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Post by Dr Jones »

Flood,

I etched one of your pcb's and am in the process of populating it. Overall, it is a very nice layout. I'm using sockets for the transistors and diodes so that I can swap them easily. It would be nice if the hole for diodes 3 and 4 were spaced the same as IC leads so that you can solder in two connected sockets rather than soldering in single sockets. The spacing is perfect for diodes 1, 2, 5 and 6. Same goes for the diode lift "IN1" and IN2".

I'm a bit confused by the tone stack. How did you intend for this to work? Should I used a SPDT switch and connect the SCOOP to the common terminal and the BOOST and the FLAT to the two outer leads? This would put the C10 and C15 in parallel in one position and C10 and C14 in parallel in the other position, but that wouldn't result in cap values typically used in a Big Muff tone stack.

Also, on the bottom of the schematic it says, "hooked C11 to +9V instead of GND." C11 is connected to GND the way the PCB is set up. What does this mean? That cap is typically grounded on a Big Muff, isn't it?

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Post by Dr Jones »

Sorry, I re-read your first post and saw that you addressed the tone stack issue. I've been monkeying with it today and really do like it. Probably the best pcb layout I've seen if you want to experiment with this circuit. Why wouldn't you want to experiment with it? EH never really settled on a single configuration. Thanks for your work! It's really a great contribution.

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Post by flood »

Dr Jones wrote:Sorry, I re-read your first post and saw that you addressed the tone stack issue. I've been monkeying with it today and really do like it. Probably the best pcb layout I've seen if you want to experiment with this circuit. Why wouldn't you want to experiment with it? EH never really settled on a single configuration. Thanks for your work! It's really a great contribution.
Hey there Dr Jones - Thanks for the kind words. :) that pretty much was my objective, making the PCB easy enough to substitute parts, perhaps one could add SIL sockets and mess around with biasing resistors as well?

The "tied to +9V instead of GND" is a leftover from the original gauss markov schematic - i did tie the cap to GND but forgot to remove the comment.

A couple of things i've noticed - the diode lift switch is not really usable - the bass boost on the "clean" signal is massive. so i'm thinking about adding a second pair of diodes and using the switch to switch between 1 and 2 pairs. i think the layout will have to be modded for that.

Does anyone know where I can get those right angled PCB mounted alpha pots? nobody seems to have them in regular supply. i'd like to use them with this pedal.
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Post by Dr Jones »

Hey Flood,

I've purchased those right angled pots from Small Bear Electronics. I've had trouble finding them on Mouser.

I really wanted to socket the resistors, but there's just too many of them. So, I opted to swap out trannies and diodes. I've been considering adding variable resistors to bias the trannies if I can find some to fit. I was sitting there, looking at the populated board the other night and got to thinking that many of the components are somewhat lined up. So, I thought, it would be really sweet if you could line up all the compononts in a way that would allow you pop in a couple of IC sockets, then you could swap all components easily. This would be the ultimate BMP testing ground. It would be a larger PCB though. I really don't like breadboarding.

So far, I'm loving this layout. I haven't tried the diode lift yet. There's a jumper there now. We'll see if my speaker survives.

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Post by flood »

Dr Jones wrote:Hey Flood,

I've purchased those right angled pots from Small Bear Electronics. I've had trouble finding them on Mouser.

I really wanted to socket the resistors, but there's just too many of them. So, I opted to swap out trannies and diodes. I've been considering adding variable resistors to bias the trannies if I can find some to fit. I was sitting there, looking at the populated board the other night and got to thinking that many of the components are somewhat lined up. So, I thought, it would be really sweet if you could line up all the compononts in a way that would allow you pop in a couple of IC sockets, then you could swap all components easily. This would be the ultimate BMP testing ground. It would be a larger PCB though. I really don't like breadboarding.

So far, I'm loving this layout. I haven't tried the diode lift yet. There's a jumper there now. We'll see if my speaker survives.
that's a great idea, actually. i'm going to keep that as a benchmark of sorts when working on the next revision.

your speaker should survive, i just think the diode lifting doesn't work too well for some reason.... with the next revision, the diode lift will have to be changed to a DPDT switch that allows you to short two pairs of diodes. with the current layout, the only thing i can do is use two parallel pairs in series instead of two series diodes in parallel with each other. i guess the big muff signature sound really is dependent on the clipping in both stages, using LEDs or FETs probably requires hotter signals, i suppose.

the flip side is that i can't commit to doing a layout all that soon - i'm swamped with a soldano atomic 16 build that's gotten out of hand in a chassis clearly too small for it, as well as 6 other amps in development, and some other effects.... but i do love this layout, and am definitely going to work on making it more flexible. socketing everything with SIL sockets is clearly a bad idea on this layout.

i can't stand breadboards either :D so i know exactly where you're coming from.

found the pots at small bear, i'm going to have to place a reasonably sized order, or else the shipping costs to india will be somewhat stupid and grossly overshadow the actual order value.
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Post by flood »

hi there dr. jones ( and the rest of you lovely people too, of course :) )

did some googling and found out that some people really like the diode lift mod, so i guess it depends on what amp you use. maybe the bass channel of my 2061x is not the right one...

a small update - i did some minor modifications to the board:

- brought the 2nd stage diodes into alignment for a standard 8-pin DIP opamp socket. should make life easier. also, i redid the diode lift thingy so that you can select between 1 and 2 pairs of diodes, if you leave the second pair out then you get the diode lift mod.
- brought the 3rd stage diodes into DIP socket alignment too! however, you will have to cut that 8-pin socket in half, only one pair possible here. a good place to experiment with different diode types, lifting this stage or increasing the clipping threshold reportedly sounds horrible though.
- added a filter cap near the 9V input, you just need to remember to flip orientation if using germs
- some minor placement changes and improvements, also the board is insignificantly smaller now.

will probably use this version for the production run of boards. will see if there is any other improvement i want to make and upload if you guys are interested.

the layout idea you had - using 8 pin sockets for everything - will take a bit longer :) i'm really hard pressed for time right now.
-
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Post by flood »

Dr Jones wrote:So, I thought, it would be really sweet if you could line up all the compononts in a way that would allow you pop in a couple of IC sockets, then you could swap all components easily. This would be the ultimate BMP testing ground.
that is what you wanted. that is what you get.
It would be a larger PCB though.
sez who? :D

:horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey: :horsey:

i'm rather motivated by the thrashing we administered to diego's boys on saturday, to say the least.

here's THE ultimate testing ground.

changes from my last post:

1. resistors around each transistor in line for standard 8-pin opamp socketing. they follow a specific format - e.g. for triangle vaues: 82k, 100, 390k, 12k from left to right. you'll see what i mean.
2. more variability in clipping for the second stage - two diodes in series per leg! no switching here though. note: the layout for the diodes is NOT the same as for the first stage. i've marked the orientation in the silk screen.
3. pots are right angled types to be mounted on the SOLDER SIDE of the board. while components may hold in precision opamp sockets i don't think that's the best way to go about it. i'Ve done this mostly because i want to use this layout in non-socketed production pedals.
4. long wire from sustain pot to stage 2 removed. jumpers are now present for the 9V DC to each stage. one small jumper in the final stage. these are again denoted in red in the component layout.
5. here's the big one - TWO transistors in parallel a la the el grande bass fuzz. use SIL sockets if you like.

now someone please do me a HUGE favour and verify this while i get back to my amps and GRE prep. i've had massive problems with my laser printer and the label backings of late, spotty results and throwaway boards. would be VERY grateful if someone verifies the layout. :D thanks
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Post by Dr Jones »

That looks really, really good. But look what you've done, I haven't even begun to experiment with your last pcb and now I'm gonna have to go and etch up a new one and populate it. :) That is, unless you intend to sell these things. In that case, I'll just pay you for your hard work.

Do you know if the mounting holes will line up with the mounting holes on your previous board? I'd like to continue using my existing enclosure, since I put a bit of work into it.

I think you have created the ultimate BMP testing ground! Congratulations! :applause:

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Post by flood »

Dr Jones wrote:That looks really, really good. But look what you've done, I haven't even begun to experiment with your last pcb and now I'm gonna have to go and etch up a new one and populate it. :) That is, unless you intend to sell these things. In that case, I'll just pay you for your hard work.

Do you know if the mounting holes will line up with the mounting holes on your previous board? I'd like to continue using my existing enclosure, since I put a bit of work into it.

I think you have created the ultimate BMP testing ground! Congratulations! :applause:
hey there dr. jones, and thanks! unfortunately :( this PCB is designed differently with respect to potentiometer positions. they're now arranged in a triangle. the board was growing too large horizontally, so i decided to place the volume pot below the sustain and tone pots.

i think it should be ok, i don't see what could go wrong. i'm going to buy and try a different type of photo paper for toner transfer this week, if that works i can etch and verify on my own.

i do intend to sell these things but there's no real market for BMP tinkering in india :D so i'll be selling them as completed pedals. but yeah, i think i will be doing a production run of these boards, and if people are interested here i would probably be able to offer them at a fairly inexpensive price. dunno how much the shipping from india will work out to though. will post back here when i know more...
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Post by Nocentelli »

flood wrote:
Dr Jones wrote:but yeah, i think i will be doing a production run of these boards, and if people are interested here i would probably be able to offer them at a fairly inexpensive price. dunno how much the shipping from india will work out to though. will post back here when i know more...
You can put me down for a couple right away... :thumbsup
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Post by azrael »

Anything happen with those PCBs?

I wouldn't mind a couple.


Did anyone try this with germaniums? I'm getting curious...

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Post by flood »

hey azrael,

i had the photoplots done for the PCBs but want to verify the design before i send them off for manufacturing. i still haven't tested the layout.

if anybody has, PLEASE write back here!

azrael, the layout sounds pretty good with higher gain germaniums. i used OC72s in my build, i think they had an hfe of around 200 or so.
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Post by azrael »

Cool. Any clips? How would you say the Ge Muff is different from a normal BMP, tonally?

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Post by flood »

azrael wrote:Cool. Any clips? How would you say the Ge Muff is different from a normal BMP, tonally?
hmmm i think the most prominent difference is that the attack is not as prominent. it's somewhat smoother. since 80% of the BMP fuzz sound is happening due to the clipping in stages 2 and 3, the character is stilll retained.

here are some clips of my amps and bmp experiments - the first one has the germ muff. the clips marked "swine flu" are the ones with the same circuit but using Si transistors instead. i don't remember which ones though, mix of BC109C and 2N4401 IIRC. oh, i'm not playing on any of those clips, those are friends of mine. i can't play like that :)

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